Happy New Lathe Day (Part 2!)

[mynewviceroy]

So once again, it's Happy New Lathe Day to me (HNLD!) as I've just been to collect a Denford Viceroy TDS 1 S/L - so that now makes 2 Denford Viceroy TDS1's sat in my garage - whoops!

It's slightly different to my other one though - different headstock area, different main bed and different main apron. If anyone can shed any light as to which Mk they are (if such a thing exists) or which is newer, or which is perceived to be better - I'd be very grateful.

My new TDS 1 S/L

TDS 1 L/S Headstock area

IMG_20230719_181715.jpg (556.07 KiB) Viewed 49672 times

TDS 1 L/S Apron

IMG_20230719_181703.jpg (171.93 KiB) Viewed 49672 times

TDS 1 L/S Bed

IMG_20230719_210227.jpg (193.17 KiB) Viewed 49672 times

My other TDS 1

TDS 1 S Headstock area

IMG_20230719_181728.jpg (706.3 KiB) Viewed 49672 times

On the TDS 1 L/S apron, there is a push in / pull out knob that engages a small (10mm dia?) fine toothed gear with a larger fine toothed gear (100mm dia?) that then drives a gear whose pitch links into the leadscrew. There is a corresponding gear below that one which also interfaces with the leadscrew. Other than the leadscrew, they don't seem to link into anything else. These gears are held in place (and adjustable) by the 2 screws (held in place by locknuts) lust to the left of the knob. When the knob is pushed in, I can't turn the main travel handle in either direction (I've edited this post since first writing it to update this bit). I've not been brave enough to drive it with the leadscrew under power so far - until I know what it does or should do. There is no gear linkage of any shape or form onto the cross slide, so I know its not a powered cross slide, but if I have a frankenmonster of the front part from one machine and the top part from another machine - that might explain it perhaps? I'm not getting confused with the powerfeed lever - that's the one on the right of the saddle and works fine and as expected.

On the main beds, the new (to me) bed has a slope which encourages the swarf to fall to the rear, whereas on my 'original' one, it has a slots / holes all the way through, so swarf will simply fall downwards.

The new lathe 'pan' has a suds drain - so that's a positive! It currently doesn't go anywhere, so that's a job to add to the list. Nothing on the old one, just a simple flat pan.

Any additional info anyone has is gratefully received!

[richardb]

Hi,
I have attached a brochure copy from about 1978 which seems to cover your lathe type, not sure of exact date as its not marked. Mine TDS1GB is from about then but has a square shape to the headstock - not sloped off as in the pic - if yours is 'squared off its a later lathe and yes mine has sloping slots in the bed.
It had power feed longitudinal and manual cross feed.

The knob you ask about appears to be for cross feed - it is pushed in for longitudinal feed and pulls out for cross feed - (mine is a different layout and the rod is push/pulled by a lever as I have a gearbox mode)l, which when direction is selected operates the feed by the lever you note.

So maybe yours is a hybrid ? Denford do seem to have numerous models though.

Have you looked at the Lathes.co.uk website as that covers the Viceroys quite well.

Richard B.

[mynewviceroy]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the brochure - I hadn't seen that one before. My 'new' Viceroy is denoted S/L strangely, not LS and it has the squared off shape - my 'old' Viceroy is denoted simply 1 S and it's that one that has the sloped off headstock area. Thanks for letting me know yours has the sloping bed - I'm working on the premise that it is the newer version. If Denford worked on a linear progression of serial numbers, it would also tie in as my 'old' lathe is serial number 1983 and the 'new' to me lather has serial number 7558.

Ref the knob, ordinarily I'd agree, but sadly in this case it appears not to be so. I would have expected a lever as that's what I've seen in other pictures of the Viceory Lathes. My 'knob' has a keyway in it which prevents it from rotating and it is affixed to the apron with a large securing nut, again preventing any rotation. The small fine gear on the end is also securely attached, it does not rotate on the shaft and there is no provision for it to do so (no circlip preventing it from coming off, no securing grub screw etc). I've attached a few more pictures showing the arrangement.

Captions are underneath relevant photo
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IMG_20230722_174312.jpg (117.91 KiB) Viewed 49647 times

Vertical view of cross slide showing 'drive' gear (not currently able to be engaged to anything) blocked by apron casting

IMG_20230722_142505.jpg (111.21 KiB) Viewed 49647 times

Reverse view of apron (upside down!) with knob pushed in

IMG_20230722_142516.jpg (88.74 KiB) Viewed 49647 times

Alternative reverse view of apron with knob pushed in

IMG_20230722_174346.jpg (103.61 KiB) Viewed 49647 times

Tailstock end looking to headstock showing vertical alignment

IMG_20230722_174434.jpg (91.48 KiB) Viewed 49647 times

Underside of apron looking towards headstock

IMG_20230722_174451.jpg (64.34 KiB) Viewed 49647 times

Underside of apron looking towards tailstock, knob pulled out - gear not engaged

IMG_20230722_174500.jpg (60.51 KiB) Viewed 49647 times

Underside of apron looking towards tailstock, knob pushed in - gear engaged

[richardb]

Can't help as my lathe has the oil filled apron and both leadscrew and feedshaft arrangement with the gearbox.

My lathes serial number is 25735 and was one of the last before they produced the 280/synchro i believe.

There are a lot of drawings available on this site that may help and Lathes.co.uk do say they have manuals etc.

Can you turn it over by hand to test rather than risking it under power ?

Richard B.

[DavidB]

I think the knob may be the longitudinal feed engagement, when in it will prevent the gear running against the leadscrew from rotating from what I've read and seen so it'll be drive the carriage along the bed. The lower gear appears to be an idler to support the leadscrew preventing it from flexing away from the upper gear when loaded.

[mynewviceroy]

Thanks for replies. It's not for the longitudinal drive engagement (tailstock to headstock or vice versa), that arrangement is the right hand most lever and split gear arrangement. The gear arrangement I have does not engage with anything except itself. I'm aware of the cross slide feed from these 2 threads:

viewtopic.php?t=450 - Apron stripdown
viewtopic.php?t=449 - Apron reassemble

My 'unknown' gears are a much finer pitch than those used in the cross slide system.

All it seems to do is lock the travel in either direction. I do have a carriage lock on the right hand end of the apron (easily visible in one of the above photos), so I'm 99% sure it is not a second system for locking the main slide (far too heavily overengineered if it was!).

[DavidB]

I think you'll find with the knob in and fine gears engaged it's not locked the carriage to the bed but rather to the leadscrew so if you turn the leadscrew the carriage should move. As there doesn't seem to be any gearing involved it should produce the same movement as the half nuts which the lever on the right of the apron engage but due to the fine gears you'll be able to engage at far more places than the half nuts which would normally be used for thread cutting but you don't have a threading dial by the look of it so would have to keep them engaged once threading and back the spindle up. Is the lathe single phase? Is it wired to reverse?

[mynewviceroy]

Thanks David,
Interesting thought - you are suggesting there might be 2 ways to move the apron, one with the lever (engaging the leadscrew with the half nuts) and one with the knob (but via 2 gears, one on each side of the leadscrew to apply a 'central' force so it doesn't try to push the leadscrew away).

I'll have to have a manual turn of the leadscrew with the knob pushed in (and the gears correctly aligned - they are currently just 'loosely' located if you know what I mean).

It is a single phase motor, not wired for reverse (currently) and no I don't have a dial indicator but I'm in the process of 3d printing one. It's an imperial leadscrew (8tpi) but I sadly don't have a full set of change gears but have previously 3D printed gears that have worked ok.

[richardb]

Just by chance there is a TDS 1/L/S on E bay at present but it does not have the 'Button'
Although you mentioned was a S/L ?

[mynewviceroy]

Yes, mine's an S/L - I think the L/S is a longer bed - at least that's what I read on lathes.co.uk I think. Seems maybe not - I've just had a quick scan and I can no longer see mention of a longer bed - not sure where I read that now...

s-l1600 (1).jpg (298.79 KiB) Viewed 49552 times

The one on eBay is 3 phase also, no 'home' conversion.

[mynewviceroy]

Thanks David,
Interesting thought - you are suggesting there might be 2 ways to move the apron, one with the lever (engaging the leadscrew with the half nuts) and one with the knob (but via 2 gears, one on each side of the leadscrew to apply a 'central' force so it doesn't try to push the leadscrew away).

I'll have to have a manual turn of the leadscrew with the knob pushed in (and the gears correctly aligned - they are currently just 'loosely' located if you know what I mean).

It is a single phase motor, not wired for reverse (currently) and no I don't have a dial indicator but I'm in the process of 3d printing one. It's an imperial leadscrew (8tpi) but I sadly don't have a full set of change gears but have previously 3D printed gears that have worked ok.

Seems this is the case! I manually spun the leadscrew (through the gearbox) with the knob pushed in and yes, it feeds the main apron along the bed, so it IS just another way of engaging them main apron travel, so now I have 2 ways! I was then brave enough to do it 'under power' and yes, I can engage / disengage at will. Not sure what the benefit is, but hey, it's another option. I also now have a working dial indicator so as and when I decide I need to cut imperial threads, I'm about 75% of the way there (need a complete set of gears to be 100% there!).

[DavidB]

Why limit yourself to inch thread pitches when you can 3D print a metric conversion set while your at it, either with a 127 tooth gear if it'll fit or one of the very close approximation ratios that suit most practical uses. I think that's what's in my Harrison M300 as it will do both inch and metric pitches without changing anything just the correct knob selections although as it has an inch pitch leadscrew the halfnuts can't be disengaged once the metric threading is started but as it's 3 phase it's easy to stop and reverse and do the next cut. My Kerry 1140 came as 3 phase but I replaced the motor with a single phase one but used the original reversing switch to allow the motor to be started in reverse if needed. Does yours have a reversing switch?

[mynewviceroy]

I'm not limiting myself, just haven't got around to 'more' yet. I can print a 135/127 compound gear ML114/9 I think is the drg number. I'm now sure I'm going to be cutting imperial threads let alone metric threads either, as in I currently don't have a need, but it is always a useful thing to be able to do - once I have the correct insert for my tooling or grind a suitable piece of HSS etc. I've just made myself a new tool post 'stem' (for my new QCTP) and cut the 1/2" BSW with a die - I could have done it via the lathe but I just bought a tap and die set as it was quicker and easier (for me).

You asked me above about a reversing switch - still no. My imperial dial indicator is now printed and works well, so I can (if I want or need) print a metric one with the 2 different gears for the 2 different pitch ranges.

The first thing I probably need to make is a new set of bushes for my 6" bandsaw as I'm fairly sure they are worm past their useful life - bronze oilite I guess will be the best material if I can get hold of some in the (roughly) correct size etc.

edited to say - seems the bandsaw uses ball bearings but does have some bushes - I shall have to disassemble and investigate!

[DavidB]

As I understand it you can't disengage the half nuts when cutting a metric thread with an inch pitch leadscrew and vice versa or you'll lose synchronisation even with a threading dial so not much point in making a metric threading dial unless you're going to change the leadscrew to metric.

Which QCTP did you go for in the end? You could post pics when done.

Is your bandsaw the usual Chinese 4"x6" horizontal/vertical type? I have a Clarke one and it's done sterling work over the years. It came with the worm and gear badly meshed and very tight but soon sorted but over time it moved again and shaved away the bronze gear due to the sharp edges on the worm. MachineMart had spares in stock and at a very reasonable price shipped so fitted after removing the sharp edges on the worm with all new quality ball bearings and no problems since in over 15 years. The original bearings were a joke quality wise and one had a bore which was 0.004" oversize.

[mynewviceroy]

As I understand it you can't disengage the half nuts when cutting a metric thread with an inch pitch leadscrew and vice versa or you'll lose synchronisation even with a threading dial so not much point in making a metric threading dial unless you're going to change the leadscrew to metric.

Ah, wasn't aware of this so thanks!

Which QCTP did you go for in the end? You could post pics when done.

I've updated my QCTP thread

Is your bandsaw the usual Chinese 4"x6" horizontal/vertical type? I have a Clarke one and it's done sterling work over the years. It came with the worm and gear badly meshed and very tight but soon sorted but over time it moved again and shaved away the bronze gear due to the sharp edges on the worm. MachineMart had spares in stock and at a very reasonable price shipped so fitted after removing the sharp edges on the worm with all new quality ball bearings and no problems since in over 15 years. The original bearings were a joke quality wise and one had a bore which was 0.004" oversize.

I initially wrote that it was a 4", then edited it to say 6", but actually it's a 4.5" - third time lucky! It's a Clarke CBS45MD. When I bought it (second hand) I did look at the worm gear and it was ok.

[DavidB]

I have the same bandsaw but bought new and as with many of these Chinese items largely just thrown together in the factory with no or little consideration for how well they work but having said that once the issues were dealt with and it set-up correctly it's a great little work horse and now cuts very true. Never bother using anything but the fastest speed even with tough 310 stainless but I always use quality bi metal blades. Hopefully any issues with yours were ironed out by the previous owner or owners.

[dazz]

Why limit yourself to inch thread pitches when you can 3D print a metric conversion set while your at it, ...

That is a very good idea. Actual metal gears are priced like crown jewels.
Somewhere on the site, I posted a spreadsheet to calculate pitches, feeds etc. That could be modified for any custom gears.