Orac RS232 cable

markd67 · Post by **markd67** » Tue 14 Apr , 2009 22:01 pm

Hi all, this is my first post so hopefully it is in the correct place.
I am really struggling with the rs232 cable from my pc to my sept 1985 orac.
I downloaded the drawing from this forum (thanks very much for this) the IBM to ORAC drawing.
So i went along and bought a 9pin female serial plug for the pc and a 25 pin male connector for the orac also 5metres of 4 core screened cable and made up the cable as per drawing (from 9pin to 25pin) 3 -2, 2-3, 5-7, conected 7-8 in 9pin and 4-5 in 25 pin then 6-8-20 in 25 pin.
Also downloaded the old machine software which i am running on windows xp through 'dosbox 0.72' but i just cannot send or receive programs, the pc wil not communicate with orac or vise versa.
Could somebody please tell me what i am doing wrong as it is driving me crazy?
Thanks in advance

bradders · Post by **bradders** » Wed 15 Apr , 2009 7:56 am

Presuming that the com port on you PC and the ORAC are working OK, the only thing i can think of, is that the 5 metre length of cable is too long and you are getting voltage drops over such a long length

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Wed 15 Apr , 2009 8:46 am

It may be worth trying to run from a older version of Windows. From experience running through windows does not allways allow the com ports to function. The best way to test is to reboot a older pc running windows 98 into to dos mode & see what happens.

Post by **Denford Admin** » Wed 15 Apr , 2009 9:27 am

In the past I've had old software running RS232 comms fine under windows 3.11 which I'd installed into a Virtual Machine under XP.
If you can't get your hands on an old PC its certainly worth trying - VMWare worked for me but can't see why Microsoft Virtual PC (free) wouldn't work either.

The old app would run fine under normal XP - except for the RS232 communications - as soon as it was installed into a virtual Windows 3.11 it all worked fine.

The other thing I wondered was whether the ORAC outputs any RS232 messages you could be looking for as it powers on

Magoo

markd67 · Post by **markd67** » Wed 15 Apr , 2009 17:11 pm

Many thanks to all of you who have replied, you have certainly given me plenty of options to try.
Thanks again
Mark.

Lone_Ranger · Post by **Lone_Ranger** » Thu 16 Apr , 2009 8:54 am

.

You can download a modern DNC software from here https://www.cadem.com for FREE that will work in Windows environment, works fine in XP Pro SP3.

Regards
Rob

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markd67 · Post by **markd67** » Sun 19 Apr , 2009 20:33 pm

Hi all, a quick update, i have sourced an old pc and have installed ms-dos 6.0 and windows 3.11, shortened the cable from 5 to 1metre ish.
Have installed the orac old machine software and still i have no communication between the pc and orac.
Just checked the wires in both 25pin and 9pin plugs against the ibm to orac drawing and one thing that keeps niggling away in my head is on the drawing it says to use 4 core sheilded cable but only three of the wires are used so, why 4 core??
Sorry if i'm being a bit amatuer but i'm really struggling now.
If the cable is correct then there is something wrong with the machine so if that's the case then i'm totally done for.
Thanks for reading.
Mark.

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Sun 19 Apr , 2009 22:11 pm

We only use 2 core & 4 core screened cable so in order to make the cable one of the wires would be cut out.

Have you tried sending the program out from the Orac? Sometimes the settings are wrong but you normally find if you output to the PC you may see some info even when the settings are wrong. Then you can play about with the settings until the info makes sense & then send the same program back.

markd67 · Post by **markd67** » Mon 04 May , 2009 22:41 pm

Hi all,
A quick update...I have finally got the computer communicating with my orac and vise versa.
The only thing i have noticed is when i send a prog to orac from the pc
if there are no numbers after the decimal point it just sends whole numbers...eg X15.00 Z0.0 FROM PC i get X15 Z0 ON ORAC.
Although this has no effect on the prog functioning correctly it just seems odd.
I would just like to thank everyone who has offered there input.
Cheers
Mark ;0)

Post by **Denford Admin** » Tue 05 May , 2009 9:32 am

btw - what software did you end up using to communicate with the Orac?

markd67 · Post by **markd67** » Tue 05 May , 2009 19:37 pm

The software i used to communicate with orac is the old machine software i downloaded from this site, installed on windows 3.11.
Like to keep everything authentic, and it works a treat.

debinyang · Post by **debinyang** » Wed 10 Jun , 2009 17:42 pm

i 'm a new member at here. i want to give you some suggestions.
1. some old cnc system only know hardware protocol
2. many of cnc system know software protocol xon/xoff (11/13 hex code)
3. many software can connecte with cnc system for example:xtalk,procomm,xp terminal
4. when you check cnc communication better first let cnc ouput a program and then you watch the crt display info. if cnc can not output you need to exchange jumper wire. normal hardwire protocol you can use pin4 pin5 and pin 6,8,20 you can test shortage or open.
5.because rs232 signal voltage on desktop is +11.xV to -11.xV. on labtop normal is +8V to -8V. but according eia standard the voltage +-3V to +-15V. because so high voltage it can transfer some longer.
6.about transfer distance:i've tested 200meter 4800 baudrate its ok. you can find a communication in normal pc and cnc to try. test is the best correct answer.
7.how do you to know which pin is transfer pin(for example 25 pin):
normal pin 7 is 0V.so you can use multimeter negatice pole on 7pin. and then use red pole to measure pin 2 or pin 3. if pin 7--- pin 3 is negative
-8v to -11.xV then pin 3 is transfer pin.
8.from communication principle, no distinguish xp and dos software.
english is not my motherlanguage,sorry. www.cncb3h.com

bradders · Post by **bradders** » Thu 11 Jun , 2009 8:18 am

debinyang,

Thank you for your Technical comments.

Post by **Denford Admin** » Thu 11 Jun , 2009 8:37 am

because rs232 signal voltage on desktop is +11.xV to -11.xV. on labtop normal is +8V to -8V

This is a good point - it explains why laptops are not ideal for RS232 communication and we've had many more comms reliability problems on laptops.
USB to RS232 adaptors are even worse, when you think about it as there is only +5V supply available from a USB port

debinyang · Post by **debinyang** » Thu 11 Jun , 2009 10:08 am

Desktop computers use +-12V voltage for rs232 ic chips.
A Laptop uses single +5v for rs232 ic chips. Inside the ic chips ( for example:max232) it has a dc-dc converter. through +5v to convert into
about +- 8V for rs232 voltage demanding. So normally single 5V ic chips
overload capability is lower. Thank you for your encouragement.
I welcome someone to correct errors in my English.

bradders · Post by **bradders** » Thu 11 Jun , 2009 10:28 am

Hi Debinyang,

I have made a few corrections to your last post and thank you for your Technical input.

debinyang · Post by **debinyang** » Thu 11 Jun , 2009 10:29 am

i' ve comparaed from usb-->rs232 and standard rs232 to transfer a file.
usb/rs232 should be lower 30%. perhaps usb/rs232 has through two
protocol. one is usb protocol another is rs232.

but any way if you use labtop to connect cnc is ok you'd better power off
and then take off or plug in the connector. if you want transfer some longer distance you'd better use dia 0.5mm cable and shield wire to connect 0v. computer is in floating ground status it means you'd better do not connect protect ground. sometimes if your computer has connected ground like fire computer if you take in/off connector when power is on.
especially when you connect mitsubishi cnc or cincinnati 850 .....
because mitsubishi and cincinnati between receiving pin and 0v are
about -0.2v. This situation harzards computer interface chip when power on to take in/off connector. you can measure computer pin2 recv and pin5 0v(for 9pin) is zero voltage. fanuc cnc pin3 and pin5(0v) is zero voltage. So mitsubishi and cincinnati does not allow to take in/off connector when power on.

debinyang · Post by **debinyang** » Thu 11 Jun , 2009 10:31 am

thank you CNC guru

Lone_Ranger · Post by **Lone_Ranger** » Thu 11 Jun , 2009 10:32 am

.

My 2 cents worth!

I use an IBM R40 Laptop (Used to have an IBM T21) with a Serial to USB adapter system every day for my Denford Cyclone Lathes with Fanuc OT-B and OT-C and I have never had a "glitch" after uploading/downloading literally hundreds of programs over the past few years!!

One thing I did do from the very beginning was to set my DNC up for RTS/CTS and not XON/XOFF, using the XON/XOFF software protocol seems to cause most problems and trying to run too high baud rates which causes ( On Fanuc anyway ) "Buffer overrun" and the control will just alarm out, if it is "hardware" to "hardware" talking to each other this doesn`t happen as a "state" at one end ie "Buffer full" is transferred instantly to the other end unlike the delays with the software!!

Although it doesn`t usually tell you in the Fanuc Manual that the control will run the RTS/CTS method most Fanuc systems will automatically "toggle" to that method if you set your DNC and the computer COM Port up right.

For the older Denford controls I`m sorry but I`ve not tried this system on any so can`t comment on them.

In your DNC you should have a "Wait for CNC" setting which will pause the sending of Data until the computer gets an "OK to send" signal from the machine control.

Regards
Rob

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debinyang · Post by **debinyang** » Thu 11 Jun , 2009 11:04 am

Lone_Ranger point out a very good question.
why using xon/xoff cnc happens override.
you know normally fanuc cnc allow over transfer 20 characters when meet
xoff(13or93 hex code).
but some people write communication software like use api or mscomm.dll. if you use api or mscomm.dll the software should be lower response for xoff.
in actually fanuc 11 is a good example when you use dripfeed function can check the software is good or bad. because fanuc 11 has strictly limit for override.
if you want has a fast response when you write communication software
you 'd better tranfer one char and to check receive buffer one time.
the responsibility of hardware protocol is fast because it check by hardware. some software check xoff use one line checking one time.
the most of fanuc cnc system (fanuc 3,6,15,16,0i,16i etc are fast than another type. if cnc memory has not too much cnc program fanuc can
keep 4800 baud no any protocol.
Under no any protocol siemens is 1200,danapath 10 is 1200,mitsubishi is 1200,cincinnati 850 is 1200.
any people want to check the reponce of communication software can
use a serial port terminal emulation. you can connect two pc by a 3 wires
cable. one pc transfer a cnc program another pc transfer 13( let another pc stop transfer). now you can look override characters. and then you can trans 11 (hex, let another pc transfer again)

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