Mirac Spindle Problems.

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Sun 03 Jun , 2007 0:38 am

Hello folks, im new to the forum and like many of you, i decided to join as i have a problem that needs to be solved.

I've tried fixing the problem and exhausted a search on this site to find the answer. But i still havent fixed the problem, so any help from the experts will be much appreatiated.

Machine:- Mirac
Software:- VR Turning

right, the problem..

1) Machine was working beautifully, then i had to press the emergency stop button. Ever since then the spindle doesnt turn.

What i did...
1) Checked the fuses - - - - - - all ok
2) Check the relays - - - - - - - all ok
3) Systematically checked all the voltages - - - - these tallied up with the ones i downloaded.
4) Took a break... had a kit kat. (it was either this or pull my hair out in fustration)
5) Checked the relay's again.. and the fuses... and once again to make sure i didnt muck it up the last 2 times.... still all ok...
6) Look on this forum, decided it could be the emergeny stop relay, checked this again, it was ok.
7) Checked the guardmaster and this seems to be working fine. although i wasnt too sure on how to check this properly.

Decided to check the VR turning program, downloaded the lasted and updated the mint. Tried once again and woo hoo... problem 2, the machine doesnt home properly now. although, i'll leave this problem till later.

Signs and Syptoms

1) When i click of 'Spindle Forward' I hear the relay click and then nothing.
2) LED on the main control shows 8
3) Two sets of drives, Spindle and Toolpost, the spindle drive's LED's show nothing at all. The toolpost Drive shows L5.
4) I can jog the machine (using the secrect home button i found thanks to this site

) and change the tooling.
5) There is 240V coming into the Spindle Drive via Wire 4.

Please help me... again sorry for th elong post, but i have tried to fix Miss Mirac...

THank you in advance.

Triac whizz · Post by **Triac whizz** » Sun 03 Jun , 2007 8:21 am

Is the emergency stop of the twist to release type and er, is it released?

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Sun 03 Jun , 2007 10:06 am

Hiya,
The emergency switch type is the twist type and it is released.

Ive opened up the emergency stop button to make sure its working correctly, i found 2 mini MCB's behind it, these seems to work fine. As i push one, the ESR deactivates and as i push the other, the guardmaster activates.

hope this extra infor is usful

Mr Magoo · Post by **Mr Magoo** » Sun 03 Jun , 2007 12:08 pm

Mmmm...

Just downloaded a set of Mirac 1996 drawings which I guess are similar to your machine.

If you've got 240v on wire no.4 going into the drive then the Estop Relay must be energised OK and so it looks like a drive problem. The drive display should be lit when it has power, even if the spindle isn't running.

There maybe a fuse inside the drive - it's worth taking the covers off.

For your info, it's not uncommon for tired drives to give up when an estop condition occurs and the spindle is running. If the electronics are getting tired then the sudden change from the drive driving a motor, to a generator (the motor) driving the drive, can zap it.

Triac whizz · Post by **Triac whizz** » Sun 03 Jun , 2007 18:42 pm

For your info, it's not uncommon for tired drives to give up when an estop condition occurs and the spindle is running. If the electronics are getting tired then the sudden change from the drive driving a motor, to a generator (the motor) driving the drive, can zap it.

Tell me about it

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Sun 03 Jun , 2007 19:00 pm

There maybe a fuse inside the drive - it's worth taking the covers off.

thank you all for the reply's.

I've taken the covers off and looked for a fuse, i can see two main fuses, although im not if i've missed one. Both of these seem to be fine. I will upload some pictures as soon as i can if this would be helpful.

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Mon 04 Jun , 2007 13:34 pm

Hello.
I've take some photos of the machine, hope this helps.

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Tue 05 Jun , 2007 18:34 pm

hello?? any1 here?

Mr Magoo · Post by **Mr Magoo** » Sun 10 Jun , 2007 6:57 am

Hi Chadha...

All looks Ok on the photo's so It's looking like a knackered spindle drive. Some suggestions...

- Confirm the 1-1/4" fuse mounted top-left side of the spindle drive PCB is OK (not sure if you've checked this)

You could try swapping the spindle drive and Toolpost drive over to prove it's a faulty spindle drive. It's OK to do this as long as the motors don't run.
- Swap the drives over and connect up the mains input and motor cables
- don't plug in the right hand long 23 way connector to the drive - this will mean the drive can not enable itself and so can not try to run the motors
- turn the machine on
- if the (now) toolpost drive is dead & the (now) spindle drive lights up then its a faulty drive - you know what I mean!

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Sun 10 Jun , 2007 11:55 am

Hi Mr Magoo.

Thank you for you reply, i tried that last week and found that the spindle drive was faultly. Then i found how much it was going to cost to be replace :SHOCK HORROR:

I just bought a new Spindle Drive from KEB, F4 Generation. A chap at KEB said this will work as the inputs are identical and so are all the other 'bits and bobs' (<-- bit's and bobs is my technical words frequency inverter at a 0.75Kw that...... Whoosh Infomations right over my head ....

)

Well anyways, i got the drive yesterday morning, I read up on the manual and sure enough the two drives wiring diagrams were identical, except Number 4, which on the old one said EARTH, and on the new F4 Drive it says Fixed Frequency.

Well I wired it all up, and hey presto, the drive lights up

. I then thought may its simple as clicking spindle forward, but then all my dreams were shatterd 'sheds a tear -(only joking, real men dont cry. *sniif*)

Is there anything else that i need to do??
Im sure there is... he he

D -Denford
e - engineers
n - never
f - fail
o - on
r - reparing
d - Denfords???

Im going insane!
lol

Mr Magoo · Post by **Mr Magoo** » Sun 10 Jun , 2007 12:16 pm

So I guess all you need to do now is setup the parameters in the spindle drive!

Gone are the days of a few simple parameters in these things - the drive has about 100+ settings!
The attached files are ones I found called "MIRSPF4" in a KEB folder in my archives drive so I guess these contain the information you need.

The DWL file is a readable listing and probably the most usefull to you.

The DWN file can be used with KEBs configuration software to squirt the parameters into the drive via RS232 link - but if you don't have the cable and KEB software then this is no good to you!

Look at the KEB manual and read how to enter / check parameters, then check them against the DWL listing and make changes as necessary (I'd guess most of them would already be correct - ie factory settings).

Hopefully you'll then be up and running

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Sun 10 Jun , 2007 12:17 pm

Further information about the F0 KEB Combivert and F4 KEB COmbivert.

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Sun 10 Jun , 2007 12:22 pm

Thank you for your reply,

i'll try this out now.

*fingers crossed*

Mr Magoo · Post by **Mr Magoo** » Sun 10 Jun , 2007 12:26 pm

No Worries - hope it works!

9:30pm over here - signing off now - time for a glass of red

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Sun 10 Jun , 2007 15:19 pm

Hello again,

i've been checking the parameters and as you said, most of them are correct not to mention read only.

now i've noticed one other fact that is, that the KEB shows noP 'no operation' and it should show LS 'low speed.

The difference betwee the two is:-
noP : - No Operation: Control release not activated, modulation switched off, output voltage = 0, drive not guided.

LS :- Low Speed: Control Release is activated, no direction of rotation is present, modulation is switched off, output voltage = 0, drive is not guided.

any ideas...

Mr Magoo · Post by **Mr Magoo** » Sun 10 Jun , 2007 20:58 pm

The drive will show 'nop' if the 23 way connector is not plugged in
(infact it is if the link between terms 14 and 19 is missing)

make sure this link is present. See drawing AC3R-11

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Mon 11 Jun , 2007 0:44 am

Hello again.

I check all the connecters and they seem to be well connected.

I traced the wire which you mentioned, physcially and on the wiring diagrams.

I think this should it should be as follows:

Connecter 23
Wire Number 48 connects into this connecter.
This wire goes directly to the terminals
It then goes to the E-Stop Contact
The wire then becomes 'Wire Number 49'
This goes back to the terminal
Which then goes the Guardmaster Switch
And then Wire Number 60 Comes out of here and goes somewhere...

Now... The guardmaster is always locked.... this is a new symptom and didnt happen before. Im guessing the solenoid isnt switching on and pulling the magnet back.. i could be wrong...

Connecter 14 and 19
Wire number 79 comes into this connecter.
This again goes to the guardmaster...
Which then comes out via Wire Number 78 to the SFF and SRR relay...

*pauses.. thinks... could it be the guardmaster?*

I really do appreactiae all the help im getting...

Btw, which is drawing AC3R-11... i dont seem to have that one.

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Mon 11 Jun , 2007 22:26 pm

hello *sigh*

yet another day trying to fix the good old mirac....

thought it might be the guardmaster... now im not sure...

but the spindle drive is working now, and it shows noP....

wires 48 check out, as do 79...

i've noticed that the E-stop switch doesnt release the solenoid no more since i put in the new spindle drive...

hmpf... what to do...

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Mon 11 Jun , 2007 23:58 pm

We used a programable output on the spindle drive to lock the guardmaster switch when the spindle was turned on. I can`t remember the parameter number but if you have the manual it should be simple to find.

chadha · Post by **chadha** » Tue 12 Jun , 2007 0:16 am

Hiya mate,

cheers for the advice, i managed to pick up a guardmaster pretty cheap and replaced the old one... but unfortunatly, the old one and new one behave in the same way... so the guardmaster theory is out of the window...

I've been able to suss out bits of it very slowly with all help from the forum and by trying to work things out systematically...

Im going to try to check if the murrelektronik 23110 is working correctly.

If all this fails... im left to one conclusion... the motor itself...

look forward to any help.

chadha

Denford Software & Machines

Denford Software & Machines

Mirac Spindle Problems.

Mirac Spindle Problems.