Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

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phoenix
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Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by phoenix » Fri 28 Aug , 2009 18:59 pm

Hi. Has anybody taken a Senior Quill Head apart? Mine needs a new top bearing but I cannot find any way of removing the spindle pulley. There are 2 socket grub screws in the same hole in the pulley, but removing them makes no difference. The pulley stays put! It does jiggle up and down about 1mm with a solid clunk at each end of the jiggle as if it is a key hitting each end of a keyway. Anyone got any ideas?
Quill Head 002.jpg
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Quill Head 001.jpg
Quill Head 001.jpg (150.54 KiB) Viewed 21684 times
Last edited by phoenix on Thu 03 Sep , 2009 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

DMIOM
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by DMIOM » Fri 28 Aug , 2009 22:00 pm

Have no personal experience but, if its a "Senior" and not a "Senior 3C", you may glean something from the drawings in the Senior Manual which Denford have kindly placed in the download section.

Would be interested how you get on - haven't had to service mine yet (a Senior 3C).

Dave

phoenix
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by phoenix » Sat 29 Aug , 2009 10:46 am

Hi Dave. I've got a manual but the drawings are 'primative' and don't give clear detail. Ideally I need to look at the GA but Denford tell me it would take weeks to find it in the archives. My mill is a Denford Senior Universal. The Quill head is the one that clamps to the vertical dovetail. If I find out how to do it I'll let you know. Regards, Bob.

Andy B
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by Andy B » Tue 01 Sep , 2009 21:28 pm

Can you post a pic of the head so that we know just what you need - I have drawings numbers / copies for various Denford Senior bits, but the machine naming seemed to be a bit random around that period.

Andy

phoenix
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by phoenix » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 7:44 am

Hi Andy.
Hope these help. Any assistance will be greatfully received. If you have any relevant drawings I will gladly pay for copies and any associoated costs.
Kind regards, Bob.
Andy B wrote:Can you post a pic of the head so that we know just what you need - I have drawings numbers / copies for various Denford Senior bits, but the machine naming seemed to be a bit random around that period.

Andy

Andy B
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by Andy B » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 8:41 am

Looks like a standard Senior quill head (just wanted to check as the base machine is a Denford Senior) - I replaced the bearings on mine a few months back.
The cross-section shown in the manual is misleading, as it shows the later type with double bearings top & bottom on the main spindle, and ball bearings for the pulley spindle.

I expect that inside yours is a single pair of taper roller bearings for the main spindle and a plain bronze bush for the pulley spindle.

What I can't recall off hand is exactly what I had to do to remove that pulley - I'll have a look over the weekend and get back to you.
If you're in the East Midlands, you're welcome to borrow the peg spanners I made to do the job.

I decided to replace both bearings as they are fairly cheap. To fit the lower bearing onto the spindle, I put the spindle in a plastic bag then stuck it in the freezer for an hour or so. Then wrapped the bearing in cooking foil and put it in a moderate oven for about 10 minutes.
The bearing then just dropped straight onto its locating shoulder, and was held fast within 30 seconds or so - no press, mallet, tubes or anything else needed.
All with full domestic approval!!

For many people the next question usually relates to setting the bearing pre-load. My experience (also posted on the Yahoo Tom Senior group) is:
"Without special tools and the designers setting instructions, general wisdom seems to be to rely on the running temperature. I gave my adjuster nut about 1/12th of a turn extra once the axial play was just
removed, then once re-assembled ran it for 5-10 minutes at each speed starting with the slowest. The spindle got warm, but I could comfortably hold my finger inside the taper (when stationary!)."

Andy

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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by Andy B » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 9:33 am

Just had a further think...
There is a picture under S-Spindle-1.zip on the Yahoo Tom Senior page - this shows an earlier arrangement than yours (quill lock is a screw on the front, not a split clamp) but shows essentially what you should find inside.

From what I remember now, the pulley is a close fit on its spindle and the grub screws that retain the pulley tend to throw up a burr when they are tightened. Consequently, it is very tight to remove and the pulley bore inevitably gets a bit scored.
When you jiggle the pulley, is the pulley spindle moving with it? If so, I suspect that the 'clunk' you are hearing is the flanged head of the pulley spindle contacting the housing. They seem to be assembled with a fair amount of axial clearance!!
So the first time you remove the pulley, it needs a bit of faith to get a lever as far under the pulley as possible and gently prise it up. Once it is off, you can file a small flat on the spindle so that subsequent burrs when you re-assemble with the grubscrews won't affect any future dismantling.

I wanted to minimise the axial float when re-assembling, and it becomes a bit of a game to hold the pulley spindle up whilst pushing the pulley down - so a small wedge (a thin flat screwdriver) down the main spindle keyway helps to lock the main splindle and pulley spindle together whilst adjusting the pully position.

Andy

phoenix
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by phoenix » Tue 08 Sep , 2009 11:39 am

Hi Andy. Thats very helpful. Sorry I'm late getting back to you but had to go away unexpectedly. The pulley jiggles on the shaft. I shall take your advice and use a bearing puller for the pulley, and hope like hell that nothing breaks!!
Thanks for your help. I may have to come back to you for more advice if that is OK? Bob.
Andy B wrote:Just had a further think...
There is a picture under S-Spindle-1.zip on the Yahoo Tom Senior page - this shows an earlier arrangement than yours (quill lock is a screw on the front, not a split clamp) but shows essentially what you should find inside.

From what I remember now, the pulley is a close fit on its spindle and the grub screws that retain the pulley tend to throw up a burr when they are tightened. Consequently, it is very tight to remove and the pulley bore inevitably gets a bit scored.
When you jiggle the pulley, is the pulley spindle moving with it? If so, I suspect that the 'clunk' you are hearing is the flanged head of the pulley spindle contacting the housing. They seem to be assembled with a fair amount of axial clearance!!
So the first time you remove the pulley, it needs a bit of faith to get a lever as far under the pulley as possible and gently prise it up. Once it is off, you can file a small flat on the spindle so that subsequent burrs when you re-assemble with the grubscrews won't affect any future dismantling.

I wanted to minimise the axial float when re-assembling, and it becomes a bit of a game to hold the pulley spindle up whilst pushing the pulley down - so a small wedge (a thin flat screwdriver) down the main spindle keyway helps to lock the main splindle and pulley spindle together whilst adjusting the pully position.

Andy

phoenix
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by phoenix » Tue 08 Sep , 2009 11:42 am

Hi Andy.
Just klicked on the S-Spindle-1.zip and it won't let me do anything because I'm not signed up to Yahoo. Bob
phoenix wrote:Hi Andy. Thats very helpful. Sorry I'm late getting back to you but had to go away unexpectedly. The pulley jiggles on the shaft. I shall take your advice and use a bearing puller for the pulley, and hope like hell that nothing breaks!!
Thanks for your help. I may have to come back to you for more advice if that is OK? Bob.
Andy B wrote:Just had a further think...
There is a picture under S-Spindle-1.zip on the Yahoo Tom Senior page - this shows an earlier arrangement than yours (quill lock is a screw on the front, not a split clamp) but shows essentially what you should find inside.

From what I remember now, the pulley is a close fit on its spindle and the grub screws that retain the pulley tend to throw up a burr when they are tightened. Consequently, it is very tight to remove and the pulley bore inevitably gets a bit scored.
When you jiggle the pulley, is the pulley spindle moving with it? If so, I suspect that the 'clunk' you are hearing is the flanged head of the pulley spindle contacting the housing. They seem to be assembled with a fair amount of axial clearance!!
So the first time you remove the pulley, it needs a bit of faith to get a lever as far under the pulley as possible and gently prise it up. Once it is off, you can file a small flat on the spindle so that subsequent burrs when you re-assemble with the grubscrews won't affect any future dismantling.

I wanted to minimise the axial float when re-assembling, and it becomes a bit of a game to hold the pulley spindle up whilst pushing the pulley down - so a small wedge (a thin flat screwdriver) down the main spindle keyway helps to lock the main splindle and pulley spindle together whilst adjusting the pully position.

Andy

Andy B
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by Andy B » Tue 08 Sep , 2009 16:57 pm

PM me your email address & I'll send you a copy of the drawing.

Andy

P.S. I'd be very wary of using a puller unless you can get it right inder the pulley - the edges break off easily, as I learnt to my cost when I had to remove my motor pulley (the previous owner had used a loctite-type adhesive, which wasn't obvious until I got it off)

Andy B
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by Andy B » Tue 08 Sep , 2009 20:27 pm

Another little bit of advice - don't use too thick an oil when re-assembling the quill - if my machine is cold and not used for a while, the quill locks up and takes some persuasion to free it again the first time it is used again. This is accompanied by a very audible 'whoosh' of air, so there is not much wear in it after 25 years of use!
I must get round to taking it out again, cleaning the 'sticky' oil off, etc. :oops:

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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by Denford Admin » Wed 09 Sep , 2009 9:03 am

For completeness I've attached the drawing in question, from the Tom Senior site... hope no-one minds!
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Andy B
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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by Andy B » Wed 09 Sep , 2009 12:31 pm

Don't Denford own the IP rights for Tom Senior?
So it's yours to do as you wish in terms of publication.....

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Re: Senior Quill Head. Anyone taken one apart? I need heeeeelp!

Post by Denford Admin » Wed 09 Sep , 2009 12:41 pm

Don't Denford own the IP rights for Tom Senior?
You'd know better than I would ! :?

Either way, I thought it'd be ok, and it would save anyone else having to create a yahoo account, join the group and wait for approval etc...

btw, that article on DST was interesting - I was just a bit confused about the Harrison connection in the early 50's - ie, what did they take, what did they leave ?
Funnily enough I have just heard a rumour about a 600 Lathes name change....

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