Denford Software & Machines

Hi I'm trying to set up the Starturn software on a Windows 2000 pro box to control a Denford Lathe. I'm not sure of exact model but I can find out if necessary. I just need some general setup guidance at this stage as I am working blind without manuals.

Does anyone have a setup guide for the starturn software that would help answer questions like does the DOS envronment require any config.sys or autoexec.bat entries or should it just run fine once the parameters have been set by running the install.exe, selecting option 2 and setting all comms parameters.

When I run c:\starturn.bat which executes :

system comms plotter spkey offline %1 %2 %3 %4

I get the following output:

Loading STARTURN Off-line Programming ......
IBM-PC Communications Device Driver v2.00 ( 29 March 1988 )
Generic Plotter Driver v2.00 ( 30 March 1988 )
IBM-PC Quick Keyboard Driver v2.00 ( 31 March 1988 )

STARTURN Turning CNC Programming System v2.01 ( 31 March 1988 )
Denford Machine Tools Ltd ( Software Department )
Birds Royd, Brighouse, West Yorkshire, HD6 1NB
Telephone 0484 712264

Security key not connected!

Quick Keyboard driver unloaded

Plotter driver unloaded

Communications driver unloaded

The end.

Now I'm doing this on behalf of my father, he's the engineer and I'm the PC support and to my mind this looks like it cant find the hardware dongle but he is sure he never had a dongle and it worked without one on his previous system which was a windows 98 box.

Firstly it would be really helpful if someone could put my mind at rest and confirm if it is possible to run this software without a dongle as if not I'm wasting everyone's time! and secondly a pointer to any setup guide would be really useful.

If the system does require a dongle can one be sourced for such an old software version?

Many thanks.

Yes, the s/ware will run without a dongle but only if it successfully finds the machine over the RS232 link.

If it doesn't find the machine then it assumes you want to run in 'offline' mode and checks for a dongle - and if it doesn't find one then reports this error.

And to setup the serial link, all you should need to do is run the INSTALL and answer the comms questions (and you've sdone this).

So I think the problem is most likely to be the fact that you're running in a WIN2000 environment (the old stuff never did like windows). I suggest running a "Virtual Machine" on your computer like Microsoft Virtual PC or VMWare and create a true DOS6.2 operating system. This may work.

As the VMWare player is now free - I hope to do a quick guide to getting some old software installed in the Virtual PC, it all depends if I get the time

If any one else successfully sets up a Virtual dos machine running on XP/2000, it would be great to have a little guide to help others set it up - it seems a lot of the problems people are having are down to running old DOS software on a new PC and/or OS
It would be nice to know where to get hold of the MSDos disks - is it available free now ? I recently found I could download all of the MS QuickBasic disks ans it looked to be all legal.

[EDIT 9th Apr 2008] - Doesn't look like VM Virtual Workstation is free now, but Microsoft VirtualPC 2007 is:
https://www.microsoft.com/windows/downlo ... fault.mspx



MrMagoo - I know you'll enjoy playing around with this stuff

Many thanks for your responses, that's great. I'll try a vanilla Dos install first to ensure we have no comms problems and go from there. If I get it all working I'll post a guide

I have a model number for the lathe now which is a Starturn 8 and this brings me onto another couple of questions. Is this a later model than the 4 or 5 or does this number just refer to size or specification?

I've seen references to Fanuc software and that this was specifically for the Starturn machines. Would we be better to use this? From what I can make out the Starturn software we have is the oldest available so I was wondering if not the Fanuc, is there any other more appropriate/better/up to date software we could be using with the Starturn 8?

Many thanks again.

Just to post a bit of an update and ask for more assistance......

I did a vanilla dos 6.22 install just to test that all was well with the comms between PC and Starturn and no joy. Still can't seem to detect the machine or at least the software dumps out exactly as stated in original post.

Continuity checks ok on all wiring so I'm guessing its a memory or serial settings issue.

What are Starturns memory requirements? Does it run within the 640K conventional memory or does it require HIMEM or EMM386 to provide EMS or XMS? over the 1024 mark?

Also, does the Starturn have any required/best serial settings? We are currently using

Baud rate = 9600
Parity = None
Data Bits = 7
Stop Bits = 1

Any additional info would be appreciated. Many thanks.

I've just had a look at a starturn install I've got on my PC.

Baudrate = 2400

Also, the cable from pc to machine can plug into the machine in 2 x orientations (rotated by 180 deg). Try both (I think it should be with the screw on the plug poining upwards)

finally, I did a build of the software that runs without a dongle. This means your software will run even if it doesn't find a machine - sort of defeats the object but may be of some help. Copy the contents of the dedon.zip into your starturn directory. Should make sense

Excellent thank you Mr Magoo, I'll give that a go and see if it helps.

Is there any chance you can post or PM me the contents of your config.sys and autoexec.bat files as they will tell me the answers to the other questions too?

Appreciate your help on this, thanks.

I'm running in a DOS box on XP - it seems to run fine as Offline but would imagine it would have problems actually connecting to a machine.

It doesn't require extended or expanded memory - I think it even ran on a PC-AT with 512Kb RAM

If the de-donglised stuff runs OK as an offline version then you know the software environment is good and it's a comms problem. (although I hope the 2400 baud got you up and running)

Finally got back round to Dads to try out the suggestions: It turns out that it was indeed the 9600 baud setting after all. 2400 baud works fine in a vanilla DOS environment. I'll see how it goes getting things working in Win2k after Dads got his jobs out of the way
Many thanks for your help on this

many thanks for the assistance to my son in getting the PC to "see" the Starmill.
I'm not out of the woods yet! I can write a simple program and execute it but with the exception of the programmable toolpost the machine does not operate. I can hear a relay in the machine operating but no action X, Z or spindle speed. In manual mode there is no jog or contiuous feed or spindle start/stop.
There appears to be no "connection" to the X stepper motor; it remains stone cold. I assume the same goes for the Z, can't get at that one.
I have checked all the fuses on the back panel.
Can you remind me what the "initialise machine" option is for? I think I can remember using this previously. If I highlight this and hit return it skips straight to the top of the list; "Edit Program.

Any guidance will be greatly appreciated.

Hi DenfordMadDad...

Just to be clear, I guess you mean Starturn in previous post (not Starmill)?

Can you check when you press and release ther Emergency Stop button that you can hear a relay clicking on and off inside the machine. The problem sounds like the machine is in a premanent 'Emergency Stop' condition, which could be the E-Stop button activated, or an overtravel limit switch (if it has any)

I also remember some machines having a small 'Limitswitch Override' button next to the E-Stop button - try holding this in whilst trying to jog the axes.

hi Mr Magoo,
It is of course a Starturn, senility strikes morefrequently these days!
I had tried all thos things, specifically:
I run without the hinged safety guard (removed from hinges) The L/H hinge is in the permanently closed position. If I operate the micro-switch I can hear a relay operate.
From memory the emergency safety switch has never operated. It does not lock in and if pressed noyhing happens.
The machine is fitted with the over-ride button adjacent to the ES switch, it doesn't appear to do anything, pressed or not.
The machine is fitted with a Z limit switch. I have removed the moveable stop. If I operate the switch I can hear a relay operate.
If I operate the Jog movement on either axis I can heat the clicking noise but nothing moves.
I have checked the operation of the operation of the commands F1 throu 10 plus the "E" and up, down left right.
F1,2,3and 4 work correctly.
F5 and 6 display 50 and 2200 respectively but only if the key is held down, releace the key and the value returns to "0"
F7,8 and 9 operate correctly.
If I press F10 nothing happens.
Pressing "E" runs a program completely but the machine does not operate except the tool change.
Pressing the Space bar, up,down,left or right produces a relay operation but no action.
I still have cold axis stepper motors.
Does that lot throw any more light on the problem?

My initial thought was an e-stop problem.
But now it sounds more like a fuse has blown or similar.

I think there are a number of fuses inside the machine (mounted on a PCB) - take a look at these and see if they all are OK. To access the electrics you roll the machine onto it's back, remove the screws holding the base plate in place and it should swing down on a hinge.

Found time to pull machine to pieces! The hindge would have been nice!
The correct drill on this machine is to first remove the two socket head screws securing the connections/fuse panel from the rear of the machine then remove the base hex screws, pull the base out and lay it flat. I have identified the problem but not the cause.
I found three fuses inside one each on the spindle motor board and the X and Z boards, they are all OK. I have had a prod around with the meter and can report:-
The slave board is "live" it is the relay on this board that you can hear operating. The tool post control is live, hence the warm stepper motor.
However ther is no supplymto the torroidal transformer and therefor the spindle or X and Z controls.
The E stop appears to play no part in what happens. I do remember It never worked!
I have pulled the two wires and if they are connected together or not has no effect. However the yellow/red wire connected to the E stop switch appears to be "linked" with the manual spindle start/stop buttons (never worked) and a board with two relays which is connected to the supply to the tor trans.
What if I parallel the supply to the other stand alone transformer.(240V in/5 vout) to the torroidal?

Just had a thought regarding the last Question:-
I could remove or disconnect the feed to the terminal block for connection to the torroidal trans.

Mmmm - I guess hinges would have been a good idea

I don't have a set of Starturn schematics avaialble so can't rememeber where the toroidal supply comes from (maybe Admin has a copy?)

Are there some thumb-screw type fuse holders next to the power-in connector at the back of the machine? I'm sure there would be a fuse somewhere in the primary side of the Toroidal Tx supply.

You could try paralleling the toroid up with the supply of the other Tx but I think you will blow the fuse supplying the 'other' tx and so both will be dead

You're better off trying to work out where the feed to the Toroid originates from

maybe Admin has a copy

viewtopic.php?t=585

A bit more info!
There is a board that has 5 relays on it; a bank of 4 and a single.
When the power is turned on, after about 0.5 second the 4 relays click on but immediatly off again. I feel this could be significant!

I dont spend all day delving into this machine only when other ops give a little time!

I have done a bit more.
I have found the wiring schematics for a Starturn 4 and tried to match things up. There are a number of wires shown in the diagrams which are not present in my machine and not all of the colour codes match up. I have pulled most of the wires from the conduit in order to trace them and have determined that the feed to the tor trans should be from one of the relay boards that has just two large relays, this board has a live 240V feed. These do not operate therefor no feed.
The operation of these relays appears to be controlled by the other relay board with 5 relays. The normally open/closed contacts are clearly visible on these relays and are the ones that operate when the power is turned on but then all 5 immediatly switch off.
Would it be at all useful if I mailed the schematics to you with some digital pics of the components and layout in my machine?

There is something odd I noticed by chance; With the 2 pole isolator switched OFF, I can find 150V AC at each point where there is 240V AC present with the Switch ON. This can only be removed by pulling the mains lead!

Would it be at all useful if I mailed the schematics to you with some digital pics of the components and layout

I think it would be best to photo the drawings and mail them to technical [at] denford [dot] co [dot] uk (if its a big file - I'll reduce it and post it on here)

Not sure how much help they would be if they aren't exactly as your machine

Could that 150V be Neutral in a 3 phase system ?