New to me Starturn 8 what to do?

[opentoideas]

So i just picked this up and after cleaning out the electronics tray of swarf and replacing a blown fuse its alive!

Its original DOS based but seems fully working..... at least in manual mode from the keyboard.

I figure for now i want to understand the DOS based programs and it is a training lathe so i need to be trained..

From what i have read while the old software has its idiosyncrasies its usable and having the toolchanger working is a plus but i now have to figure out how to get a drawing from Fusion360 to it and what the process may be.

I think this may be a steep learning curve but if anyone has any tips or sugestions then i would love to know any words of wisdom.

While changing out the control system is always an option it seems worth seeing what i can or cant do with it as it all seems to work.

Am i on the right path or flogging a dead horse

[opentoideas]

o.k. so possibly not fully working.....

I don't seem to have any spindle speed control.... though it may well be my ignorance...

within manual control from the software I can turn the spindle on and off with the spacebar but F5/F6 just takes it from 0 to 2500rpm with mothing in between. using the controls on the front of the machine I get a relay click with on/off buttons but no movement and no change with the speed control pot.

I will try to write a simple program and see if that gives me any control but I get the feeling something is off......

I was really hoping I could get started with the supplied DOS program but if I have a spindle driver issue then I need to figure out if I need to just bite the bullet and convert it.

I really hope I am missing something obvious and that someone will be kind enough to point me in the right direction

[opentoideas]

so speed control on G Code is working but not in the on screen manual control or on the machines front controls.... confused...

[opentoideas]

ok so more reading and digging on the supplied PC it looks like I didn't get the DOS CAM program so it looks like I will have to use the latest greatest fully upgraded finger CAM

fortunately it doesn't look too bad so time to work the examples and create some cheat sheets for reference.

I cant say I fancy figuring out DOS networking so I have a download of easyturn running in DOSBox so I can code in comfort then need to figure out a floppy drive so I can transfer the code to the lathe PC.

all in all its progress and will hopefully have chips soon

I need to see if I can find a replacement for the chuck as its 100mm but severely limited with the single set of jaws I have but i have a few chucks and jaws collected over the years and hopefully I can find a better replacement or set of jaws as i have some chunks of Delrin but they are slightly too big to fit as is.

[TDIPower]

hi, i picked up an st5 a few years back running dos. i built up a dos machine to run it with the tutor keyboard but the issue with getting files over saw me building and xp machine running dosbox meant i could use usb drives or put it on the network (didnt give it the default gateway so it stayed off the internet). i quickly tired of dos control and the tutor keyboard so began a transformation to a windows control using the later denford control board. this stalled quickly as a major job came on and i spent 4yrs rebuilding my landrover., Thats now done so i have a few house renovation jobs to get done and ill be back on the lathe!
I take it you have al the manuals and disks? i scanned all the original manuals and posted them in a thread on here. they may be of some help. There was info on the sprint spindle controller.

Pete

[opentoideas]

Hi Pete, yes i have manuals and discs though what use 5.25" floppy's are with nothing to read them....

Fortunately the supplied PC has a 3.5" drive with the software on it and installed hdd so I have a USB 3.5" floppy to transfer files.

I found this last night which seems like the best manual yet for G code on the old Denfords, might be worth adding to the documentation side.

hmmmm upgrade to USB using the Denford boards..... that's an interesting idea.

I have been grateful it is all working in DOS as I don't like any of the conversion options. I have dabbled in Linux with home automation and raspberry pi type SBC's but have to admit it was a chore. even when there are great instructions they are done by techies and simple things get missed making the process impossible to replicate for a noob lol UCCNC seems like a possibility rather than Mach3/4 but the modern Denford VR software seems like it would be ideal. I suspect costly to purchase but isnt everything CAM related?

lol the documentation even came with a CD demo of VR software

tell me more... is it possible with the electronics I have? and what bits do I need to find?

[opentoideas]

So my next quandry is the computer.

Its old obsolete and though working now when it eventually fails its scrap. I really dont want to mess with it other than get a backup just in case...

The need for a serial port is a pain though. I have been looking at getting something like a Panasonic toughbook CF-53

Its an older ruggedised laptop used a lot in workshops for car diagnostics and the like. As such unusually for a modern (ish) laptop has a serial port.

My thinking is to multi boot this with a DOS version for current system and linux to play with as well as up to date windows.

This would hopefully give me a working system as is and the option to use more modern control ststems if thats the way I go.

Any already using these? Problems i will likely encounter?

[TDIPower]

even modern PC motherboards come with built in rs232, it is normally a standard header on the board but they don't include the plug to 9way d type for the back panel. I have a couple of dell optiplex that would be ideal to build up as they are pre i3/i5 gen quad core PCs, I have a Dos PC still set up and running but not needed now.
I'm pretty sure all the DOS software is available to Dload from Denford website, you do need to dig for it and select the correct stuff.
I don't actually know the ST8, post some pics up of the machine and control boards. My ST5 is very close to the novaturn in spec, just a lower speed/power spindle and old control.
I have used the denford VR software form milling/routing for 20+years but never for a lathe. I like it as it is straight forward and designed for the machines. It would probably frustrate someone that fully understand Gcode programming , I don't so it works for me and have always been able to achieve what I wanted.

I'll drop you a PM.

Pete

[opentoideas]

Let me figure out posting pics and i will. I snapped a few while I was in cleaning but i think the control board is hiding under the axis drivers

[opentoideas]

old Denford electronics

[opentoideas]

have to just give credit to Denford for a great layout and machine design.

dropping out the electronics was a simple and easy task. the machine was designed by an engineer that's for sure.

far more used to the norm where you open up a machine and still struggle to get to anything you need.

[opentoideas]

Is the DOS CAM Designer software available?

I was hoping all the old DOS legacy software was available but not seeing it.

I suspect i may have it on the 5 1/4" discs i have but no way to read it

[Martin]

https://www.denford.co.uk/dos-vintage-m ... formation/

[opentoideas]

Thank you Martin.

I have posted a separate thread in software as I am struggling to get a new PC to connect. I hope someone can point me in the right direction as although I have a working PC I really don't want to mess with it and risk breaking what's already working.

unfortunately replicating it on another PC is proving to be more challenging than I had hoped

[opentoideas]

success!

tip: when using good practice and engaging E-stops when not in use - remember to reactivate the E-stops before testing software connection

so what do I now know?... its not that difficult in retrospect.

DOSBox seems to be working fine in Win10 (will see if anything strange happens once I produce chips but for now...)

there are a few changes to make in the DOSBox config file but only serial is needed the others just make life easier.

C:\Users\User\AppData\Local\DOSBox\dosbox-0.74-3.conf - is the file to edit

first addition in serial port section is :

serial1=directserial realport:com1
--this sets up the serial port to the COM port, check which com port to use in Device Manager (windows)

I put the DOS Denford software into C:\Denford on the PC so can then add to the AUTOEXEC section :

mount c c:/denford
c:
cd starturn
starturn

this will load the Starturn software so when you open DOSBox you are straight into the Lathe control

changing fullscreen at the beginning of the file also starts you.... well full screen.. Alt enter to exit.

something I want to have a play with is changing the CPU type in DOSBox as it seems that in manual control varying the spindle F5 F6 does sort of work but it takes a ninja speed press to get anywhere between 0 and max....possibly slowing the emulated CPU speed may cure that..perhaps

Hopefully this might help someone - if only me when I need to do it again!

[opentoideas]

so next steps...

I would really like to find a more modern control card that would open up the Denford windows CAM software.

if anyone knows which boards would potentially work that would be a huge help but I don't expect to find one anytime soon. hopefully one may turn up on ebay from someone stripping out the controls. does it need to be the latest USB boards or would an older serial work if a specific type? Are there different USB boards? if there are different generations then hopefully an older board may be a possibility. while the electrical side of control switching and stepper drives I am familiar with I have little knowledge of the specific motion controllers that Denford have used over the years. time to start searching the forum for info.

if I can find one then I will be approaching Denford for software licencing. given all options have a cost attached licencing the Denford software would be an ideal way to go.

in the meantime under the Saturn 8 documentation sticky there is a CAM Designer software and installation manual.......

I cant see this in the legacy software section linked above by Martin. was this an early version of Denfords licenced CAM software? is there a way I can get it or is it now forever consigned to history?

I know I am clutching at straws but it looks like a really useful bit of software to have while I am waiting and learning the DOS side.

[TDIPower]

Just dropped in to see how things are going. Not well ATM but when I get chance I'll look see as it has been a while since i went through my old software box.

I'm sure Martin will know better but the later windows control, there are 2 boards, bottom board has all the stepper driver and connections for external relays, estop safety stuff, spindle control board (0-10v out I think), then the upper board is what I would call the logic board (afaik you can swap the upper boards to 'upgrade'), the older ones had a red 7 segment LED display, RS232 control and a Varta Nicad battery which tended to leak and damage the board (not required so removable). They then moved onto ones with green 7 segment, rs232 on earlier then usb later, The RED 7 seg boards needed an eprom with the correct information onboard, later were flashable, they had names like Denstep, Nextstep. I don't know the full gen on them but there is information about what boards can do what, compatibility with win7-win10 and various machines. The red 7 seg boards ran the VR V2 software although I think some earlier eproms ran DOS and if you got a later eprom or later board you could rune VR5 Now that is based on the milling machines. The only denford lathe I have worked with is my ST5 with the GSM dos control but I did do research into the VR conversion but it was 4+years ago and on hold!

[opentoideas]

Just to add another wrinkle....

I will be looking to add a mill at some point ideally a Triac if i can find one at a price i can afford.

I have a feeling that this may rule out going the route of Denford software as while i can justify one licence if i am reading correctly i would need several to do this as they are all seperate.

Quickcam 2d and VR turn for the lathe and quickcam pro?? and VR milling for the mill

I have a feeling that lot would cost a lot more than i would be prepared to invest as a hobby.

Can anyone confirm what software i would be needing for both a lathe and mill?

I dont want to waste Denfords time with a call for pricing if its going to be a lost cause.

[TDIPower]

For machine control
Mill.. VR milling 5 if the control is late enough to run it if not VR2 or an eprom upgrade
Lathe VR CNC Turning again I think if the control is late enough, unsure what there was between DOS and VR Turning.

CAD design and post processing
Fusion 360, there are denford post processors out there for mill and lathe now so could be free.
Or the Denford stuff, Lathe quickturn 2d design which I think included the postprocessor for the lathes
Mill post processor Quickcam pro

Pete

[opentoideas]

Thats good info

So from a hobby side i can possibly reduce it to VR turn and VR mill and use fusion for the CAM side of things....

For now i will play with DOS on the lathe and if i find a Triac depending on where it is in the software side decide where to go with the lathe from there.

No rush as i have plenty to learn.