Triac NS PC Z axis problem

[MauricioTakano]

Hi, my name is Mauricio.
I once posted a topic about some problems I was facing during routines in VR Milling software.
Before I could fix it, the machine (a TRIAC NS PC) stopped working. I was having some issues with the Z axis.
I believed that the problem was the motor and tried to buy a new one. However it didn't solve the problem.
Every time I try to move the Z axis, a shrill noise starts and the motor doesn't move at all.
I checked the relay wiring and I noticed that when I try to move the axis, the break doesn't actuate. Then I tried to activate the break and then move the Z axis.
The motor started to move and then stopped after half a spin.
X and Y axes are working fine. I already tried to exchange X and Z drivers, but the problem continued in the Z axis.
This problem started after I pressed the "Guard Close" button.

Hope you can Help me.
Thanks.

[MauricioTakano]

Also feed rate shows as if it was in 0%, no matter how I move the potentiometer. M03, M04 and M05 don't work. I used the secret button to home all axes, but it didn't solve any of the problems.
There are times when I connect with the machine and it recognize the two potentiometers, but when this happens another problem occurs. Every time I try to move a axis the message "Drive is not enabled" or, sometimes, the message "asynchronous axis error".
When disconnecting the machine I have to cancel M05 by pressing "ESC". And then the message "Machine Error: "M05" operation Timed Out" appears.

[Martin]

I can't remember fitting a brake to the Z axis on a Triac. Are you sure it is not a Triton?

If it does have a brake then it sounds like you make have a broken wire going to the Z axis brake. Have you got the electrical drawing? The brake will require 24 volts DC to release. You should be able to check the output voltage in the electrical panel. Also you should be able the continuity across the coil of the brake.

What version of VRMilling are you running? Have you updated to the latest version & updated the firmware using EasyUpgrader.

[Denford Admin]

This is the history of this issue:
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=3878

It sounds like a power supply or wiring problem
Possibly related to the supply for the Z axis brake or the pneumatic solenoids

I'd be tempted to disconnect the brake, solenoid caps and Z axis stepper.
Disconnect everything at its source (ie, terminal rail in the cabinet and the terminals from the stepper drives)
... then the software may connect to the machine without any problems
Then it's a case of plugging stuff back in until you start to get problems again (ie, communications / timeout errors / override pots not changing)

[MauricioTakano]

I can't remember fitting a brake to the Z axis on a Triac. Are you sure it is not a Triton?

- Yes, it is a TRIAC for sure. I am attaching a picture of it and a picture of the motor with the brake.

Motor.jpg (48.98 KiB) Viewed 11567 times

Triac2.jpg (61.79 KiB) Viewed 11567 times

If it does have a brake then it sounds like you make have a broken wire going to the Z axis brake. Have you got the electrical drawing? The brake will require 24 volts DC to release. You should be able to check the output voltage in the electrical panel. Also you should be able the continuity across the coil of the brake.

- Yes, I have the electrical drawing. I already tested the wires, they all seem to be ok. 24V DC comes from ports 99 and 61, but when I try to activate the Z axis, this voltage doesn't go to pots 98 and 60 as it should. I then tried to connect the wire that comes from port 99 with the wire that comes out of port 98, and the wire that comes from port 61 with the wire that comes out of port 60. By doing so the brake worked.

What version of VRMilling are you running? Have you updated to the latest version & updated the firmware using EasyUpgrader.

- I don't remember what version of the software I am running, I am not at the university right now. But I do remember that it was the latest version. I tried to update the firmware using EasyUpgrader, but after checking my machine it says "your card is not compatible with the very latest software. The bootloader is out of date and cannot be updated with this software. Please contact Denford about updating so you can take advantage of the latest features of the new software. Otherwise you may continue and update to the latest version(s) possible".
And then another message appears: "Your CPLD needs updating - only Denford personnel can do this - contact Denford".

[MauricioTakano]

This is the history of this issue:
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=3878

It sounds like a power supply or wiring problem
Possibly related to the supply for the Z axis brake or the pneumatic solenoids

I'd be tempted to disconnect the brake, solenoid caps and Z axis stepper.
Disconnect everything at its source (ie, terminal rail in the cabinet and the terminals from the stepper drives)
... then the software may connect to the machine without any problems
Then it's a case of plugging stuff back in until you start to get problems again (ie, communications / timeout errors / override pots not changing)

I already tried to disconnect the brake. After doing that the motor did only half a spin and then stopped along with a continues shrill noise.
I'm gonna try disconnecting everything and do the test you proposed. But for me it seems like a software problem to communicate with the machine.

[Steve]

I would try and disconnect the motor from the mechanics of the Z axis and see if it then works.

There could be several faults so disconnect the brake from the back of the motor too. If the Z moto will not work then it could be a problem with the drive.

Check the mechanics of the z axis with the motor removed can you turn the screw and move the axis without the motor fitted?

[MauricioTakano]

I would try and disconnect the motor from the mechanics of the Z axis and see if it then works.
Check the mechanics of the z axis with the motor removed can you turn the screw and move the axis without the motor fitted?

I did that already, it does move correctly without the motor. I am able to turn the screw and move the axis with no problems.

There could be several faults so disconnect the brake from the back of the motor too. If the Z moto will not work then it could be a problem with the drive.

I did took out the brake already, it doesn't work either. It starts spinning and then stops. I tried to exchange the drivers from X and Z axes already, the problem continued in Z axis. So I believe the problem is not the driver either.

[Martin]

Can you connect the Z axis to the X or Y axis drives?

If you press the secret home button you should then be able to run it.

[MauricioTakano]

Can you connect the Z axis to the X or Y axis drives?

If you press the secret home button you should then be able to run it.

Exchange the drivers you mean? I did that already, exchanging the X axis driver with the Z axis driver.
Even though I wasn't able to move the Z axis.

[Martin]

How about trying it as a Triton? It may release the brake. You would probally need to use the secret home button.

[Denford Admin]

Can we just verify what your problem is and what you've tried now ?
The Z axis motor sometimes spins but then stops ?
The Z axis has been run from a different axis drive and the problem remained with the Z axis ?
The Z axis motor has been replaced with a new one ?
The Z brake has been removed and the problem with the Z motor remains ?
Has the brake wiring been disconnected and if so, at the cabinet or the motor end ?
has the motor been disconnected and if so, at the cabinet or the motor end ?
As you mentioned other issues such as potentiometers not working and M codes timing out then I think the problem must be related to the Z axis motor or brake wiring.
Both should be disconnected at the cabinet and everything should run normally (the software will think the Z is moving even though it won't actually do so)

[MauricioTakano]

Can we just verify what your problem is and what you've tried now ?
The Z axis motor sometimes spins but then stops ?

No, it never works. But it used to work before, it stopped working after I had to press the "Guard close" button.

The Z axis has been run from a different axis drive and the problem remained with the Z axis ?

Yes, thats correct.

The Z axis motor has been replaced with a new one ?

Yes, we just bought a new one.

The Z brake has been removed and the problem with the Z motor remains ?

When I removed the Z brake the motor started spinning and then stopped.

Has the brake wiring been disconnected and if so, at the cabinet or the motor end ?

I didn't disconnect the wires, I just tried to make it free the motor by connecting the ports in the cabinet.

has the motor been disconnected and if so, at the cabinet or the motor end ?

I didn't disconnect the motor either. I just tested continuity of the wires with a multimeter.

As you mentioned other issues such as potentiometers not working and M codes timing out then I think the problem must be related to the Z axis motor or brake wiring.
Both should be disconnected at the cabinet and everything should run normally (the software will think the Z is moving even though it won't actually do so)

I will try this (Disconnecting both motor and brake at the cabinet).

[Martin]

The motor would stop when it reaches it's limit. It does still sound a brake issue.

Have you removed the brake from the motor?

[MauricioTakano]

The motor would stop when it reaches it's limit. It does still sound a brake issue.

Have you removed the brake from the motor?

Yes, I have.

[Martin]

The Z brake has been removed and the problem with the Z motor remains ?

When I removed the Z brake the motor started spinning and then stopped.


What do you mean by this?
Was the motor attached to the machine?
If it was did it drop under it's own weight?

[MauricioTakano]

The Z brake has been removed and the problem with the Z motor remains ?

When I removed the Z brake the motor started spinning and then stopped.


What do you mean by this?
Was the motor attached to the machine?
If it was did it drop under it's own weight?

Yes, the z axis has dropped. I put a block of tecnyl to hold it.
But the motor is no longer attached to the belt or the pulley that moves the Z axis.
I am just trying to make the motor rotate, but even without the brake it doesn't.

[Martin]

I would make sure the X or the Y are moving correctly then plug the Z axis motor directly in to the X or Y drives. This should prove if it is a motor fault or a control fault. Make sure the brake is energized or removed at this point.

[MauricioTakano]

I tried to uninstall the software I was using (VR Milling 2.31) and installed VR Milling 2.16. Then the motor started working, but the brake is still not working. Then I jumped the cables to make the brake work. Now the Z motor is working fine. However it only works when I activate the brake manually. The software is not sending the command to activate the brake. No signal is arriving at the relay. What could be happening?
And the potentiometer is still not being recognized by the software (it is always showing Feed Rate: 0% and Spindle: 50%).

[Denford Admin]

See here for the Feed pot problem - are they enabled in the software ?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3623

I'm wondering if you did not select the correct machine type in the latest VR Milling v2 ?
The brake output may not have been available in the early version of the software so may never work in 2.16
Everything should be OK in 2.31 but you need to select the correct machine type and maybe make some alterations to the parameters.