My new viceroy lathe

[Hawk]

Hi all, i thought i'd introduce myself and my lathe and follow up with a couple of questions.

I decided to start a custom motorcycle building company, but i decided that i'd try make a few things as a hobby to find out what i needed to learn before making it into a proper business. So, i bought myself a bunch of tools and made myself a motorcycle frame using some pre-made parts etc and going to local machinists to get them to make up jig parts etc etc, then my mate, who's a professional welder finished welding up the first frame that i made.
After that i decided that i'd much rather be able to make all the parts that i need at home. For that i'd need to learn to be able to weld correctly (so i went to college and done two courses) and use a lathe...then buy one.
Thankfully along the way i befriended a machine shop owner and he started teaching me the basics of using a lathe, and in return i done bits 'n bobs for him around the shop. So after i thought i knew the basics i looked into buying my 1st lathe.

I sold one of my motorbikes and bought this little beasty from a friend of my father-in-law.


The first problem i ran into was that the person who owned it before me changed it from 3 phase to single phase and wired it up so that i only turned in one direction (great thing for a screw cutting lathe right!?). I now have it working in both directions with the single phase motor.
I also realised that the lathe i'd learned the basics on had a quick change tool post and mine doesn't, so i learned pretty quickly how to shim tools to the correct height after breaking one or two tools!

So my questions after all that waffle are;
1. where could i get a quick change tool post and what type am i looking for? is a generic boxford one from eBay going to be ok?
2. how do i remove the lathe chuck? as i have a couple of other ones i'd like to try on it (i have two, three jaw chucks and a four jaw chuck)
3. what type of coolant do you think i should run? i'm mainly going to be turning bright steel and a little bit of aluminium. I'm thinking of putting a coolant pump in and having a feed going to the work piece, as i've used this kind of set up on my friends lathe and it worked very well.
4. where should i be greasing up/oiling to ensure my lathe runs smoothly and i don't accidentally wear parts out?
5. how do i centre the tailstock? i managed to drill a hole in a piece that i turned and it was slightly off centre.
6. how do i use the gearbox correctly? i have the document that someone made up for it (so that should cover most of it) but the leadscrew/feedshaft only appears to turn when i have it on specific settings...that appear to be completely off from what the document that i've read advises. i.e. rotary selector dial at 3 and the gear engagement lever at 1. I haven't yet changed any of the spur gears, is that one of the reasons?
At the moment i'd like to have the lathe not trying to cut threads, just a nice even surface (what is the best setting for that so that i can turn the leadscrew on and let the machine work it's way up the work piece rather than me do it all by hand?).

I hope this isn't too long for you all (and posted in the correct area of the forum!)
Any and all help is welcomed.
Thanks in advance!
Alastair

[LesT]

Here are my (helpful I hope) comments on your questions:
1) Quick change toolposts...
There are a lot of different kinds.
This is the one I have:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/piston-type-q ... 4ad7fbfdc4
(Except that I have the wedge type, (250-111), not the piston type. It seems to work OK. Its chinese BTW.
You can get better ones, but they will be dearer as well.
2) The lathe chuck is on a Right Hand thread on a standard viceroy. I would suggest using some release oil on the inside of the chuck for a few hours and then you should be able to knock it off with a sharp tap with a hammer on a well fitting chuck key. Be extremely careful running the lathe in reverse. If you are not careful the chuck can unscrew and/or smash the toolpost.
3)- no comment.
4) There are oiling points at various places on the lathe. A small squirt from an oil can is needed on a daily basis if you are using it daily. There are headshaft grease nipples, grease occasionally. The gun and the nipple must be spotless to avoid bearing contamination.
5) Centre the tailstock using a dial gauge mounted in the chuck, turning the lathe by hand. There are allan screws for Across the bed, up and down is more difficult.
6) As long as the leadscrew/ feedscrew drive is running OK, each position on the gearbox selector should result in an output motion. There is a sticky topic which explains this a bit further. If it doesn't run on some selections the gearbox may be damaged.
Getting thirsty, have to go.
Cheers,
Les.T.

[Hawk]

Thanks for the reply!
I think i might have to get in and have a look at the gear box. must be something wrong in there as it doesn't seem to work on some settings.
I think i'll go and annoy my mate (again!) about what i should be using on it etc.

[rpwilson]

Thanks for the reply!
I think i might have to get in and have a look at the gear box. must be something wrong in there as it doesn't seem to work on some settings.
I think i'll go and annoy my mate (again!) about what i should be using on it etc.

Before you try taking off the chuck, I think there is a spindle stop, at the left hand end under the cover. Engage this to lock the spindle, when removing a chuck, don't rely on the back gears.

If I remember correctly, theres a thread on here somewhere about a gearbox that didn't seem to work correctly, and I think it had been incorrectly reassembled, so that the knob on the front, which engages a rack inside the box, wasn't pointing at the correct number on the front. The lever on the left should be put in neutral, then turn the knob to the required setting, then move the lever to the matching number. Theres more to it than that and its quite complicated if you don't have the correct procedure. Move the right hand lever on the top of the box (while machine is running) to the right to select feedshaft rather than leadscrew.

Richard

[Pete.]

Thanks for the reply!
I think i might have to get in and have a look at the gear box. must be something wrong in there as it doesn't seem to work on some settings.
I think i'll go and annoy my mate (again!) about what i should be using on it etc.

The gearbox lever should only ever be set to the same number as the dial. If you get motion with them set to different numbers it's not lined up right. and you'll have to remove the front plate to find out why.

If you do take off the front cover you should know that it's not straightforward to line up the dial and lever. There are a different number of splines on the lever to teeth on the quadrant gear and it requires a good bit of fiddling about to get it right. You have to press out the oil sight glass to see what engagement you have on the teeth and even then it's a matter of 'feel'. If you get the engagement too tight it'll bind the gearbox and make horrible crunching noises as soon as you put a load on it, too loose and it'll probably work fine for light use but chew up gears under load.

I have some spare gears for the metric gearbox so if you find it full of busted bits shoot me a message and I'll see what I got.

[jpopowski]

Hi Alastaire,

I don't know if you have received answers to all of your questions!

If not, give me a call on 07717 440 318

I may be able to give you some help/guidance.

Jan (Yan)

[dazz]

Hi
Don't be afraid to open the gearbox. This is what you should find inside.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=504

[Hawk]

thanks dazz! hopefully i don't find anything disturbing in there...although i have a sneaking suspicion that i will.

[Hawk]

I've been playing with my lathe over the past couple of days and been trying to turn some 2 1/2" EN8 bar. not going so well. i'm getting lovely lines all over the job. My mate who runs the machine shop tell me that my headstock bearings are more than likely gone. he asked me to check a few things and it looks like they might very well have a little play in them.
Anyone know where i can get some new ones (ebay has nothing for me it seems) and know how to fit them/remove the old ones?

i've tried to turn the speed up on the lathe for working on this piece and found that the pulleys on the motor are trying to remove themselves. only does it when it's put onto the top speed setting. I suppose i'll have to play about with the motor positioning and what not at some point too!

[rpwilson]

I've been playing with my lathe over the past couple of days and been trying to turn some 2 1/2" EN8 bar. not going so well. i'm getting lovely lines all over the job. My mate who runs the machine shop tell me that my headstock bearings are more than likely gone. he asked me to check a few things and it looks like they might very well have a little play in them.
Anyone know where i can get some new ones (ebay has nothing for me it seems) and know how to fit them/remove the old ones?

i've tried to turn the speed up on the lathe for working on this piece and found that the pulleys on the motor are trying to remove themselves. only does it when it's put onto the top speed setting. I suppose i'll have to play about with the motor positioning and what not at some point too!

Before you rush into assuming you need new bearings, theres quite a few things that can cause poor finish.
Have you tried adjusting the preload on the bearings? Thats the first thing I'd try if you think you can detect movement. Denford don't seem to give too much information, other than aim for a resistance of 10-15lbs inches measured by attaching a spring balance to the end of a piece of twine wrapped round the faceplate (!), and dividing the reading on the balance by the radius of the faceplate. Belts and gears must be disconnected for this test. With the later Synchro, they just suggest that the bearing temperature should not exceed 65 deg C after an hour running at high speed.

Cutting tool must be exactly at centre height

Then theres a whole minefield of issues, such as how far is the work sticking out of the chuck, are you supporting it with the tailstock centre, are the slide gibs properly adjusted, what tool are you using, what cut and feed are you using, and what speed are you using. Top speed is about 1350 isn't it? I'm not sure I'd be going that high unless its for a final light finishing cut.

Richard

[dazz]

Hello

The spindle bearings are standard Timken taper roller bearings. The same bearings are in common use on other applications (eg. Cessna aircraft wheel bearings). The inner and outer cones are ordered separately. Make sure you get the right version.

Removing the spindle and bearings is not too difficult. These posts show how to do it.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=499
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=465
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=478
I stripped the spindle but I didn't replace the bearings. If you do, make very sure the mounting surfaces are absolutely clean and that the bearing is properly mounted.

I also had problems with poor finish when I started using the Denford Viceroy. It was all my fault. With good quality material, the right speeds, feeds and tools I now get excellent finish with fine tolerances
as shown below.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4444

[Hawk]

Thanks very much folks!
Just ordered a couple of different types of turning tools that i have more experience of using, rather than the brazed ones i currently have.
going to get a quick release tool post too, will make things a bit more familiar and easier to set the tool heights etc.
I'll let you all know how i get on with the bearings etc. I need to find some oil for the gearbox before i go much further. Anyone have any preference in what they use for the gearbox? Also what grease do you lot use for the grease points? If you lot have good experience with some, i'd rather use that than try several different types.

[dazz]

Hello

I have found that a Denford is on the lower limits of power for driving carbide tools. Study the specifications of the tools you are using. You are likely to find that the minimum speeds and feeds for the tool equate to heavy cuts for a machine like a Denford. I wind up the speed and feed as much as I think the lathe will handle. Anything less gives poor results.

I have had good success with Tungaloy Cermet CCMT inserts.

I mostly use HSS tools because often standard inserts won't get into the places I need to cut.

[Hawk]

Had a little peak in at the motor today to see if i could sort the issue of the pulley, pulling itself off the motor. Gave parts of it a good clean and put it back together and then changed the tension on the belt. It now seems to be much better. Only, now i've realised that (since i've had it) it's only got the ability to change through 3 speeds, as at each end of the pulleys (top and bottom) they're offset from each other. I'll try get a picture tomorrow when i have a moment.

Also, before I go ahead and clean out the gearbox. I've been reading up on the correct lubrication in the owners manual. The lubricants it's showing don't appear to exist any more. Would i be ok to use automotive gearbox oil in the lathe gearbox? (i think i seen somewhere that you were using 80/90 in yours Dazz?). And what kind of grease is best? general lithium based one? I should be able to get both of these from my work if they are suitable.

[dazz]

Hello

I got all worried about using the correct lubricants when I rebuilt my lathe. I went as far as consulting a lubrication engineer from one of the major oil companies.
Basically the best lubricants available at the time Viceroys were made are not as good as the lowest spec lubricants of today.

I use ordinary 80/90 gear oil in the gearbox. Don't use EP oil because the additives will slowly dissolve any bronze type alloys.
The gearbox is very lightly loaded so it will last forever with just about any lubricant type.

For grease, I use Grade 3 multi purpose. Nothing special.

For the back gears, I use spray-on chain lube. It is specifically designed to not throw so it stays stuck to the gear teeth.

For the bed and slides, I give a squirt of 90 gear oil each time I use the lathe. I frequently wipe the ways clean.

[Hawk]

So! i emptied all the old oil out of the gearbox and made a lovely mess doing so. Who designed the drain bolt to be so inaccessible eh?
Anyway. I was quite pleasantly surprised when i opened up the gearbox and found nothing obviously wrong. I did however find the problem when i was putting everything back together.

Are there supposed to be teeth on the lever? is it looks like they've rounded off...a long time ago. So there was nothing wrong with the gearbox at all, it was just the lever slipping!
I'm thinking of (after a suggestion by a friend) drilling a hole and tapping it to allow me to put a grub screw in to hold the lever in place.

As for the motor alignment...see for yourself.

I'll need to remove it and see how i can move the mounting holes over a bit. Someone obviously thought that it'd be fine with the 3 speeds when they were changing it to a 1ph motor.

I went looking for gearbox oil and all i could find was EP...several different kinds of it. Will it damage the gearbox if i was to use it?
only grease i could find was "type 2"....i don't even know what that means haha!

[rpwilson]

So! i emptied all the old oil out of the gearbox and made a lovely mess doing so. Who designed the drain bolt to be so inaccessible eh?
Anyway. I was quite pleasantly surprised when i opened up the gearbox and found nothing obviously wrong. I did however find the problem when i was putting everything back together.

Are there supposed to be teeth on the lever? is it looks like they've rounded off...a long time ago. So there was nothing wrong with the gearbox at all, it was just the lever slipping!
I'm thinking of (after a suggestion by a friend) drilling a hole and tapping it to allow me to put a grub screw in to hold the lever in place.

As for the motor alignment...see for yourself.

I'll need to remove it and see how i can move the mounting holes over a bit. Someone obviously thought that it'd be fine with the 3 speeds when they were changing it to a 1ph motor.

I went looking for gearbox oil and all i could find was EP...several different kinds of it. Will it damage the gearbox if i was to use it?
only grease i could find was "type 2"....i don't even know what that means haha!

Theres a lot of discussion on many machine tools sites about the'correct' lubricants. Hanging my head in shame, I tend to the view that any oil is better than no oil at all. In my time I've used anything from 30W motor mower oil through 20/50 multi grade for general lathe lubrication including slide ways, and I've even used chain saw oil on the slide ways of one old lathe. It has the advantage that it doesn't wash off easily.
I did do some investigation when I got the current Denford, a 280, and discovered the modern equivalent is a 32 grade hydraulic oil for general lubrication and the gearboxes, and a general purpose car wheel bearing grease for the headstock bearings. I am using up some 'proper' slideway oil at the moment, but when thats gone I'll be using the 32 grade hydraulic oil on the slideways as well.

Richard

[dazz]

Hi

You need to remove the motor and mount and relocate the motor further right to align the belt. That much misalignment will create a lot of rumbling noise, vibration and ruin the belt.
I have a genuine 1ph motor/pulley for sale but it is on the wrong side of the planet.

[paulmo101]

Hi

Where is the gearbox drain plug on the TDS?

Cheers
Paul

[dazz]

Hi
On the bottom of the gearbox casing, below the sight glass.