I have scanned the 5 sheets of the wiring schematics reduced them and translated into jpeg format. I have similarly reduced the 8 images. The total is only just over 3meg.
The neutralof the supply to my machine is of course that of a 3phase supply and yes I do have the 3 phases, neutral and earth in my workshop. There is never more than a few volts between N and E.
The puzzle is that the machine power switch is a 2 pole isolator and when in the off position the only connection to the supply is the Earth.
Starturn software on a Windows 2000 pro box
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I've put your electrical drawings in the download section:
viewtopic.php?p=2960
Thanks.
Here is the layout of the electrics - hopefully it will jog someones memory!
viewtopic.php?p=2960
Thanks.
Here is the layout of the electrics - hopefully it will jog someones memory!
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The Denford mad dad
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I have at last found some time to further investigate the problems with my Starturn 8.
Working on the basis thet it is not much use as it is and no further input from yourselves, I did the following:-
By tracing wires it is clear that the supply to the tor trans is via the lower of the 2 relays on the L/H relay board. The top of the 2 relays does not appear to be wired. The connection to the primary of the Tor trans is via one of the mauve wires from the afore mentioned relay to the 5 way terminal block(only 2 ways used) to the left of the trans then together with a neutral to the primary.
Simarly, one of the Red wires from the relay supplies the A/C supply to the Spindle speed control board.
I shunted a live A/C supply to the Tor trans and and immediatly had operation of the X and Z drives.
Next I shunted a similar feed to the Speed control board. Imediatly, th spindle operates but without any control. When you turn on the machine power switch the spindle starts to run at max speed until some 0.5 secs later when the five relays on the other relay board "click on" and then imediatly off again when the spindle slows to about 200 rpm and runs constantly. There is no control from the PC and the software seems to crash. It is not possible to reboot as the lathe is still running.
It seems to me the underlying fault lies with whatever is causing the relays on the 5 board to fail to remain"on"
Does this help in any way?
Regards, the denford Dad.
Working on the basis thet it is not much use as it is and no further input from yourselves, I did the following:-
By tracing wires it is clear that the supply to the tor trans is via the lower of the 2 relays on the L/H relay board. The top of the 2 relays does not appear to be wired. The connection to the primary of the Tor trans is via one of the mauve wires from the afore mentioned relay to the 5 way terminal block(only 2 ways used) to the left of the trans then together with a neutral to the primary.
Simarly, one of the Red wires from the relay supplies the A/C supply to the Spindle speed control board.
I shunted a live A/C supply to the Tor trans and and immediatly had operation of the X and Z drives.
Next I shunted a similar feed to the Speed control board. Imediatly, th spindle operates but without any control. When you turn on the machine power switch the spindle starts to run at max speed until some 0.5 secs later when the five relays on the other relay board "click on" and then imediatly off again when the spindle slows to about 200 rpm and runs constantly. There is no control from the PC and the software seems to crash. It is not possible to reboot as the lathe is still running.
It seems to me the underlying fault lies with whatever is causing the relays on the 5 board to fail to remain"on"
Does this help in any way?
Regards, the denford Dad.
Hi Dad...
Just got round to looking at this thread again and good to see we have some pics and diagrams!
It seems to me the 2 x large relays on the relay board are..
Emergency Stop Realy - Energises when machine is healthy
Spindle Run Relay - energises when software wants spindle to run
Look at schematic A3-10048 (image6.jpg) I think the E-Stop relay will energise when Guard Switch is Closed, Z Over Travel limit switch is closed, E-Stop push button is closed. Make sure all these are good!
I expect the supply to estop relay coil will low voltage (12 volts???) Make sure this low voltage supply is present. Wthout it the relay will not energise and could also be the cause of other problems.
Just got round to looking at this thread again and good to see we have some pics and diagrams!
It seems to me the 2 x large relays on the relay board are..
Emergency Stop Realy - Energises when machine is healthy
Spindle Run Relay - energises when software wants spindle to run
Look at schematic A3-10048 (image6.jpg) I think the E-Stop relay will energise when Guard Switch is Closed, Z Over Travel limit switch is closed, E-Stop push button is closed. Make sure all these are good!
I expect the supply to estop relay coil will low voltage (12 volts???) Make sure this low voltage supply is present. Wthout it the relay will not energise and could also be the cause of other problems.
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The Denford mad dad
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sun 01 Apr , 2007 17:42 pm
Hi again Mr Magoo,
I have done a bit more investigation; cut most of the cable ties in order to more easily trace the cable routings. The plot thickens!
It is worth restating that this machine was operating in what ever configuration it is prior to the updating of the computer operating system.
The items that have never worged are the manual spindle Stop/Start and speed control pot together with the E/Stop.
There is both 12V DC and 24V supplies available from the trans to and from the fuses to the respective connections.
the 12V DC via the rectifier (bottom of picture) goes to the Guard hindge and Z travel switches which all operate the large relays. The reason I thought they were not operating was both switches are permanently closed, If you operate the switches the relays operate.
I have found evidence of repair/modification hidden in the bundled wiring. Behind the front panel in the vacinity of the manual speed controls ther was a 150mm length of yellow shrink sleeve. On removal I find four spade sockets. If you follow these wires to the other end of their harness ther is another piece of heat shrink concealing the other end of two of the wires which have been chopped. There is also a small chock blcck making alternative connections. See attached images.
I guess these mods were done to isolate the manual spindle controls as it is programable; safer where school students are involved
The problem seems to be that even ,thogh the two large relays are "on" that board is not receiving any power to pass on to the Speed, X and Z boards. I will contine to look as time allows. Doyou have any further suggestions?
Of passing interest, there is a lable attached to the top side of the machine base (see bottom centre of original image) with the words Edenham repair in pencil. Would this have been a Denford lable?
(This Starturn together with the Starmill were originally supplied to The Edenham School in Croydon, Surrey. I passed on the Starmill to James McMillen of MCM models and it is now in the USA)
.
I have done a bit more investigation; cut most of the cable ties in order to more easily trace the cable routings. The plot thickens!
It is worth restating that this machine was operating in what ever configuration it is prior to the updating of the computer operating system.
The items that have never worged are the manual spindle Stop/Start and speed control pot together with the E/Stop.
There is both 12V DC and 24V supplies available from the trans to and from the fuses to the respective connections.
the 12V DC via the rectifier (bottom of picture) goes to the Guard hindge and Z travel switches which all operate the large relays. The reason I thought they were not operating was both switches are permanently closed, If you operate the switches the relays operate.
I have found evidence of repair/modification hidden in the bundled wiring. Behind the front panel in the vacinity of the manual speed controls ther was a 150mm length of yellow shrink sleeve. On removal I find four spade sockets. If you follow these wires to the other end of their harness ther is another piece of heat shrink concealing the other end of two of the wires which have been chopped. There is also a small chock blcck making alternative connections. See attached images.
I guess these mods were done to isolate the manual spindle controls as it is programable; safer where school students are involved
The problem seems to be that even ,thogh the two large relays are "on" that board is not receiving any power to pass on to the Speed, X and Z boards. I will contine to look as time allows. Doyou have any further suggestions?
Of passing interest, there is a lable attached to the top side of the machine base (see bottom centre of original image) with the words Edenham repair in pencil. Would this have been a Denford lable?
(This Starturn together with the Starmill were originally supplied to The Edenham School in Croydon, Surrey. I passed on the Starmill to James McMillen of MCM models and it is now in the USA)
.
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- Img_0897.jpg (67.93 KiB) Viewed 6566 times
Hi DMD
From what I rememeber, if the machine was ordered with the "Programmable Spindle" option then the push buttons/rotary knob on the fron didn't work - so these makes sense not working, but ESTOP would never have been disabled at the factory - "health and safety" and all that...
It's possible the mod's inside the machine were part of the 'programmable spindle' factory upgrade.
Don't think the label will be a Denford one - more likely to be from the school or local sparky.
I'm at a bit of a loss now. I'll keep my eye out for anything that could help but nothing yet I'm afraid
From what I rememeber, if the machine was ordered with the "Programmable Spindle" option then the push buttons/rotary knob on the fron didn't work - so these makes sense not working, but ESTOP would never have been disabled at the factory - "health and safety" and all that...
It's possible the mod's inside the machine were part of the 'programmable spindle' factory upgrade.
Don't think the label will be a Denford one - more likely to be from the school or local sparky.
I'm at a bit of a loss now. I'll keep my eye out for anything that could help but nothing yet I'm afraid
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The Denford mad dad
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sun 01 Apr , 2007 17:42 pm
Hi Mr Magoo,
spent a bit of time today, cut off the remainder of the cable ties andunplugged and removed the X and Z drive boards to get a look at the slave board.
I can confirm the Estop, guard switch and Zlimit switch are all in series and there is a 12V supply to RL1 on the slave board. There is also a 12V supply to RL2.
When the machine is turned on RL1 and 2 both switch, 2 stays on but 1 immediatly switches off. LED2 lights But LED1 does not! RL1 and the 5 relays on the other board all behave in exactly the same mannar simultaneously.
Does that give a clue?
Best regards DMD.
spent a bit of time today, cut off the remainder of the cable ties andunplugged and removed the X and Z drive boards to get a look at the slave board.
I can confirm the Estop, guard switch and Zlimit switch are all in series and there is a 12V supply to RL1 on the slave board. There is also a 12V supply to RL2.
When the machine is turned on RL1 and 2 both switch, 2 stays on but 1 immediatly switches off. LED2 lights But LED1 does not! RL1 and the 5 relays on the other board all behave in exactly the same mannar simultaneously.
Does that give a clue?
Best regards DMD.