My Novamill won't run

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Tony Kelly
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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Tony Kelly » Tue 02 Jul , 2019 15:12 pm

Hi Steve

I've ordered plenty of new fuses, All the other fuses have the same rating as the one that keeps blowing, Should i replace all those fuses in the relays with the 6.3A fuse or leave them at 80ma?

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by TDIPower » Tue 02 Jul , 2019 17:06 pm

I'm pretty sure you should be able to find the drawings on here for the novamill and think it says which fuses are which within that.

80mA seems very small for anything in these machines,

Pete

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Tony Kelly » Tue 02 Jul , 2019 18:24 pm

Cheers Pete/Steve/DavidB


I changed the fuse in the smartstep card and it came to life, the control card now shows the number 8 nice and bright on the 7 segment display. :D

I still have the problem of the computer not recognising the machine, i'm not quite sure if it is the cable(s) i'm using.

As far as i am aware these were the originals, 1 is a D25M to D25F (IBM Parallel) which connects to D25M to RS232. the connector on the side of the ATC box is a D25F , i'm pretty sure the two cables were used because the computer was some distance from the mill. (and they are quite old 1996)

Would it be worth trying an RS232 cable direct from the smart step card and bypassing the connector at the side of the ATC box or are the cables wired specifically for the Novamill with a certain pin configuration.

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by TDIPower » Tue 02 Jul , 2019 21:20 pm

There is a post with pictures about this. It shows a pin out for direct from PC to controlboard using 9way D types, this is the connections it uses.

1 DCD nc 1 DCD
2 RD - 3 TD
3 TD - 2 RD
4 DTR - 6 DSR
5 GND - 5 GND
6 DSR - 4 DTR
7 RTS - 8 CTS
8 CTS - 7 RTS
9 RI nc 9 RI


I have faced issues with RS232 connections to Starturn, Novamill, Micromill and Microrouter (if you were messing with computers in the late 80s early 90s when people really started to play with PC's and controlling stuff you would know the nightmares around despite their being guidelines). In theory you only need pins 2, 3 and 5 that Transmit and Receive date and ground. Then you need various links CTS RTS etc to loop back to the computer.

I presume it has the 25way on the case. buzz your lead out against this set up. This a known worker for a lead I use which is 9way PC 25 way machine

DTE Computer DIRECTION DCE Denford
9 pin fmale 25pin male
Case -- -
1 DCD <- 8 DCD
2 RD <- 3 TX
3 TD -> 2 RX
4 DTR -> 20 DTR
5 GND -- 7 GND
6 DSR <- 6 DSR
7 RTS -> 4 RTS
8 CTS <- 5 CTS
9 RI <- 22 RI

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by DavidB » Tue 02 Jul , 2019 21:55 pm

Tony,
Good to hear you're getting somewhere with suitable fuses, hopefully when all are replaced with appropriate ones all will be good.

A few comments about TDIPower's comments the abbrevations DTE=DataTerminalEquipment, DCE=DataCommunicationsEquipment. These have caused issues for decades as a PC can be considered to be both and has led to many interpretations and resulted in RS232 comms connections potentially being a nightmare. I worked in software for 20 years and had my share of issues but always resolved them, fortunately when I connected my Orac to a PC the lead worked straight out of the box. Regarding the comment about only needing pins 2,3, and 5 connected that gives no handshaking and one very experienced programmer I knew said that should only be used when you could accept data loss which I don't think you can in this situation. I doubt XON/XOFF protocol is an option in this application.

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Tony Kelly » Wed 03 Jul , 2019 20:03 pm

Well all fuses have been changed for the correct ones. The ATC box starts up, the 7 segment display goes through the following process.
switch on displays 0
after a few seconds changes to .L (the full stop flashes)
Then changes to 8

When it changes to 8, a sound of air or slipping belt is coming from the mill, i don't believe it can be air as it's not connected.

This is as much as the machine does. I took the covers off to see if i could tell where the sound was coming from but its inside the main housing.

Still comes up as the picture RS232 not found.

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by TDIPower » Wed 03 Jul , 2019 20:27 pm

DavidB wrote:
Tue 02 Jul , 2019 21:55 pm
Tony,
Good to hear you're getting somewhere with suitable fuses, hopefully when all are replaced with appropriate ones all will be good.

A few comments about TDIPower's comments the abbrevations DTE=DataTerminalEquipment, DCE=DataCommunicationsEquipment. These have caused issues for decades as a PC can be considered to be both and has led to many interpretations and resulted in RS232 comms connections potentially being a nightmare. I worked in software for 20 years and had my share of issues but always resolved them, fortunately when I connected my Orac to a PC the lead worked straight out of the box. Regarding the comment about only needing pins 2,3, and 5 connected that gives no handshaking and one very experienced programmer I knew said that should only be used when you could accept data loss which I don't think you can in this situation. I doubt XON/XOFF protocol is an option in this application.
Much more detail than i went into :) the proper denford leads have the loop backs in them as required, you just have to hope that someone didn't have a non denford moulded lead so they changed the cab wiring to make it work, I used to have to program radio comms gear in the late 80's early 90's, link to RS232 printers etc etc. Back then you always had this issue that PC mobo didn't have onboard RS232 it was all plug in cards on the 286-486 stuff, some mobo's wouldn't with with some RS232 cards. i could cry some days dealing with that. Never knowing where the problem was other than RS232... having said that, if i hadn't had that experience I wouldn't have been able to get my Boxford up and running, that had 24v on DTE lines! took a while to trace connections back to ICs on the board and then find their specs. So glad i kept my 25way RS232 jumper box and LED indicators, came close to binning them on the wife's command on more than one occasion!

Tony...

Which version of VR milling do you have? 2 or 5. if 5
Check you have the correct version of machine selected, Setup > Select machine > (click on the legacy option) > Novamill
I don't have VR2 set up here so can't be sure how it is selected within that (it's been a few years since i did a VR 2 config)
Don't forget to check the RS232 parameters set up in your PC and those set in VR milling, you can check what it set .
Setup > Setup Machine Parameters> Password denny > look at the the communications and input/output devices part.

Pete

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Tony Kelly » Wed 03 Jul , 2019 21:08 pm

I'm running VR 5

The relays in the ATC all have LED's but none of them are illuminated

but i will check the setup and get back to you.

Thanks

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Steve » Thu 04 Jul , 2019 6:40 am

Hi. I posted a link to the circuit diagrams at the beginning of this thread. You should make sure you have the correct values fitted in all of them.

Until you have communication set up there is no point in looking at anything else.

There are several posts on the serial cable but if you have the original black Lindy cable it should work.

Check your computer and make sure the serial port is configured as com 1.

Normally these would be a 9 way. Maybe post a picture of the cable you have and the back of the pc.

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Martin » Thu 04 Jul , 2019 8:35 am

It may be just the stepper motors humming as the motors will be energised now you have the control powered up & ready.

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Tony Kelly » Thu 04 Jul , 2019 16:15 pm

Hi Steve

i got the circuit diagram OK trying to understand it is my problem. :oops:

I've attached some photos of the cables supplied no black ones i'm afraid and I've listed the pin connections hope it makes sense.
IMG_0660.JPG
IMG_0660.JPG (275.01 KiB) Viewed 204 times
IMG_0658.JPG
IMG_0658.JPG (301.43 KiB) Viewed 204 times
Pressed metal housing of the cable from the ATC to the 9 pin conversion cable
IMG_0657.JPG
IMG_0657.JPG (388.45 KiB) Viewed 204 times
Rear of the computer Com 1 was originally the 25 pin connector
IMG_0626.JPG
IMG_0626.JPG (237.9 KiB) Viewed 204 times
output wiring on the ATC

Grey cable supplied with pressed metal housings.

Pin Configuration 25 pin to 25 pin

Computer Male end.......ATC female end

pin 2 ........................Pin 3
3...............................2
4...............................5
5...............................4
6 looped with 20............6 looped to 20 + 8
7 Gnd.........................7 Gnd

I'm not sure whether this cable is configured correctly




Stepper card cable
9 pin to 25 pin cable

At Card----------------ATC Out
Pin 1.................Pin 8
2.........................3
3.........................2
4.........................20
5 Gnd...................7 Gnd
6.........................6
7.........................4
8.........................5
9.........................22

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by TDIPower » Thu 04 Jul , 2019 17:09 pm

On the pic of the computer rear panel, the Purple 25way is not an RS232 port, that is a parallel port (unless you are referring to one that is not in the pic) The 2 9 way D type are the RS232, so you need to make sure you have them set up and can work out which is which.


The one that you call Stepper card cable 9-25 way looks to match up with the pin outs on the mill case connector, however it all depends if pins 2 and 3 are correct way round (TX/RX data often an issue)
I would be using this one and making sure the RS232 ports on the PC are set up correctly. If you open the PC case have a look if the 9ways are on a full card or just link cables back to the motherboard, either way look at where the connections are on the Card or mobo, they should be labelled Com1 and Com2. Ensure you use com 1 and set up the bios and software the same.

The IBM universal cable (metal cases) looks to be a 25 way version but rather than have the data lines connected at each end to allow full communication for PC to Mill it has loop backs, often done to save on the numbers of cores used in the cable.

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Tony Kelly » Thu 04 Jul , 2019 17:44 pm

Hi Pete

i was using the 9 pin on the computer they are part off an expansion card dedicated to these two ports, i'll have to spend a while and configure these within the computer it self and then get back to you.

Thanks

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Tony Kelly » Sat 06 Jul , 2019 19:50 pm

Hi All

I'm at a bit of a halt at the moment i discovered my computer is not recognising my RS232 port and defines it as a parallel port. i'm waiting on a new adaptor to see if that cures the problem failing that i'll have to get hold of an older computer with the RS232 port on the motherboard.

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by Tony Kelly » Thu 11 Jul , 2019 11:15 am

Hi Guys

I managed to get myself another computer and everything is running great. I just have to learn how to use it Know :delirious:

Thank you all so very much for your assistance, you all have been a great help and i would never have done this without you, If you helped an old fart like me get this mill up and running you can help anyone, also a big thanks to Alistair for his assistance and documentation invaluable.

I'm Chuffed


Thank you

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Re: My Novamill won't run

Post by TDIPower » Thu 11 Jul , 2019 17:07 pm

Great stuff!!!!

Pete

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